Finally, Alan Merret has revealed to us what 'that' Games Workshop teaser video was all about! Apparently Games Workshop are releasing an entirely new paint range. Wow, I didn't see that one coming! So we all now know what the number 145 means! OK so that was me being sarcastic, I know, very out of character for me. So yes, we all probably knew before the Store managers officially knew, because Games Workshop has an insane fear of actually telling their staff and customers any information. Why? God only knows. But, putting aside the companies piss poor marketing techniques, and frustrating lack of dialogue with their customers and indeed their staff at the coalface, I actually think this move is a pretty good one on the face of it. I'm going to explain why...
- Their current paint range was being left behind by other paint ranges in terms of effects and mediums. This move brings it back into line with the market leaders and may even surpass them.
- Games Workshops games require people to paint a veritable bucket-load of miniatures to play them. To do this quickly and effectively requires a 'certain' type of painting. The original Foundation paints although too gloopy for my tastes actually worked well for this. So offering more shades and colours in the range as 'Base Paints' is a good thing for their version of the hobby.
- Following on from the previous point their original washes also helped with the speed painting of armies. So more of the same is a good thing surely? Well as long as the new 'Shades' haven't fecked around with the wargamers crutch of choice... Devlan Mud!!! If it has I expect burning torches and pitch forks to be out in force.
- 'Glazes'. Firstly I'm very pleased to see glazes come back. The original Citadel glazes weren't the best formula in the world, but with a dunk of matte varnish they worked a treat. If this formula works well then I think many will see them as a very welcome addition to their paints box. These are actually the paints I'm most likely to try.
- Increased range of colours allows for lazy painting. Again something that aids the painting of huge armies. Have you ever tried mixing that exact same shade of pink or aquamarine every time across 250 miniatures? No, because it's a ball ache. Having a greater breadth of colours allows a little bit more personalisation. that's a good thing people.
- The dry compounds are actually a pretty nifty idea, and I don't believe I've seen them done elsewhere. Although I could be very wrong. They will though yet again aid the rapid painting of armies, so I'm calling it a win for how Games Workshop hobbyists will approach the hobby.
- As for the texture paints... about bloody time too! Vallejo have offered these for some time now, and they're actually really good. In fact regardless of what the Citadel ones are like I'd urge you to take a look at the ones Vallejo offer. Still it's a damn good thing they're available and will yet again speed up army painting.
So yes I'm going to say that I for one welcome the new Citadel paint range. I don't currently use Citadel paints for a variety of reasons. I'm also not too sure that this announcement will change that state of affairs to be honest with you, but hopefully it'll make some of your lives easier. I know some of you are concerned about having colours that will match the current colour range, and thus the armies you currently have. I can honestly understand this concern. I have to be honest and say that it was Games Workshops dicking about with their paint range that forced me to jump ship and try other, more 'stable' paint ranges. I've ended up settling with the Vallejo range and the Tamiya range in the main, plus very recently I've tried and liked some of the P3 paints. Plus the new Warpaint range from Army Painter looks really, really good too, if a little bit 'brief' in variety for my liking. So I understand your concerns, but until we all actually see the paints in the flesh and the tones we won't really know what they're like for colour matching. On the whole as I've listed above I think it has to be a win for Games Workshop.
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| So that's what 145 looks like. |
I know it's the hip and cool thing to pick on Games Workshop at the moment. Hell, I've done it enough already myself with all their blunders over the last 12 months, but on this particular issue I think it's a smart move, and more importantly the right move. My only concern is with the pots the paints are actually in themselves. I knew that they'd not move to dropper bottles for a number of reasons, chief of which was the fact it would necessitate remodelling of how every single shop not only stores but also displays paints and that costs big money. BUT... I hate these pots. Seriously, I've brought a few paints that I still do use from the Citadel range every now and then in these style pots, mainly Bleached Bone and Scorched Brown and they dried out quicker than rapid setting concrete in the Sahara Desert. Simply put they're rubbish. So that's the one and only concern that I currently have. The paint pots suck the big one. Still I'll take a look at them in my local Games Workshop and see what I think, it's just that right now as things stand it's unlikely I'll be getting any given my huge store of paints I already have. Peace out!
Long live Devlan Mud!
ReplyDeleteNot sure about this, may move to Vallejo. The instability of GWs pains is concerning, though I like some of their newer shades.
PhilH
http://infrequentwargamer.blogspot.com/
I haven't actually seen the paints in the flesh. But it'd be interesting to see how their shades actually compare to their current colours. I'm not too sure how it'll work if I'm honest in terms of colour matching. As for moving to other ranges I made the leap myself and I haven't personally regretted it.
DeleteWow, that was not the hate-filled reaction I had expected ;)
ReplyDeleteWhile it will be a while until I replace my key colours with these as I have a fair store, I'll probably pick up a few to try out. It looks like a very good move for 80% of their customers (I'm loathe to use the term "Games Workshop hobbyist").
Honestly, if they released a mail order only version where they're in dropper bottles instead of the "from the pot" style, I'd probably be all over these.
Hey!!! What do you mean hate filled? I'm nothing if not fair and even handed in my opinions! When they do something good I say, when they do something blisteringly stupid I also say! Just because you're a rabid fanboi!!! :P
DeleteNo I agree with you over 'buying' an entire range at once. I had to do it a few years back, but I wouldn't do it again. The only thing missing for me are weathering pigments and those dropper bottles. Like you I want dropper bottles.
Weathering powders are handled by Forgeworld (I'm sure you know this already). I actually have a few on my desk for when I get around to working out how to use them!
DeleteI woke up this morning, checked my email and thought "Hmm, I've always wanted a full set of paints. If it's a reasonable price I might pick one up". Then there was much laughter once the page loaded. Apparently not fanboi enough.
I'm happy I picked up the Vallejo Game Colour stuff for my current armies before this happened (as you mention in another comment, they're pretty much an exact match). Dropper bottles are win.
I must say I don't get the hate against the foundation paints. Personally I only use Mordian Blue, the red, the orange and one of the greys, but I love them. I do tend to throw them out the airbrush though, so maybe that has something to do with it.
Did you 'thin' your Foundation paints when putting them through your airbrush? If so what with? They're just way too thick to use directly and you'd just suck all the moisture out of the paint and leave a heavy gunk behind.
DeleteI don't hate them for what they do, and what they're designed for. However, I don't paint like that and the colour separation of the pigment in the pot on some of them just irks me. They're not consistent, but if these base paints work better I'll consider them.
Yes, there's no WAY they'd go through the brush as is. I tend to go 1:1 Foundation to water. Maybe a drop of thinner too in some of my cheaper brushes.
DeleteI've had the separation problem when I've stored pre-thinned paint, but a quick shake sorts the actual paint pot out. A bit of a pain as it means that I have to thin each batch. Having bought Vallejo analogues for them, I've found they separate in the same way too (but dropper bottle means you can shake it without worrying about it flying across the room).
As long as I've given them a good mix I've found they hold the same shade. I do blow through them at a fair rate though (Mordian Blue being the base colour for at least two of my various forces) so I don't tend to see them under aged condiditons.
Yeah you see the sort of painting I was doing when I got my Foundation paints didn't call for them much. So their separation and the differing drying rate of the various pigments I found it effected the overall colour of the paint.
DeleteConvenient timing on this post, as I've been thinking about paints recently (as part of my infinitely delayed plan of getting back into the hobby properly).
ReplyDeleteCould you give me an idea of how the GW paint ranges stack up against the competitors? On the one hand, if I'm going for Infinity then I don't care about "colour compatibility" and I can go for any range (with which I have no experience). On the other hand, I have my Epic army that I still want to finish (and miscellaneous existing things for other armies), so going with GW paints would be easier.
Over time I've watched the pots get smaller and the prices go up, but are they on a similar level with the competitors?
No detailed answer required of course unless you want to, I not going to treat you as a free information service here :P
I have no problem giving my thoughts on things. This might be a fairly long response though!!!
DeleteP3 - Actually really good coverage and actually retain quite good coverage when thinned. The colours within the paints don't separate as badly as some. Not as wide a range of colours as some paints but it does have some interesting and 'vibrant' game colours other ranges don't have. I haven't had issues with mine drying out but I know others have.
Vallejo Model - The larger of the two acrylic paint ranges from Vallejo and the backbone of my own personal painting (what little of it I do now). Has simply put the largest range of colours. Think of a colour and they probably make it. I love panting with my Vallejo paints because naturally I just prefer painting over white normally. The pigment in the paints can sometimes settle at the bottom of the dropper bottles but if you know this then you can work with it. Coverage is a mixture though. Some colours are really opaque while others are quite weak. My biggest criticism of the range is the inconsistency of coverage. But the colour reproduction is brilliant the colour you put on the mini is the colour it dries as.
Vallejo Game - More akin to the current (not the new) range of Citadel paints. In fact the colours are pretty much the exact same pantones. As a whole the coverage is more consistent than the far bigger Model paint range and as a general rule of thumb they're more opaque as well. The range has extra opaque colours that are akin to the current foundation paints too. As well as glazes, inks etc. Actually for GW paint refugees this might be the perfect range.
Warpaint - I have actually had a brief of brief chances to sit down with the Army Painters latest range. I'd actually really like to give them a go properly at some point because they actually flowed quite nicely and their coverage was really quite good from the paints I got to see. However, the range of colours on offer isn't huge and there are too many gaps for me for this range to be 'the one'. I've always been a bit intriged by the dips though.
Tamiya - I love some of the Tamiya paints and I'm not so sure I could live without my X-19, X-25 and X-27 in particular. Everyone tells me Tamiya paints are acrylic but honestly I can't see it myself. They perform and opperate differently to most other paint ranges I use. They have a quite nice 'liquid plastic' quality to them and they dry very flat and matte most of them. There are though two ranges, although the qualities are similar and both can be thinned with water, the 'X' range tends to be more primary colours that have more of a satin finish, while the 'XF' ranges tend to have a more muted tone range and are more extrme matte finish I guess.
Citadel - I currently am not a huge fan of the current Citadel paint range. I think the colours in both the standard and foundation paints have a horrid tendency to separate. I've seen two very slightly different shades of the same colour come out of the same pot. Most peeps won't notice this, but it bugs the living bejesus out of me. Like the Vallejo Model Colour range the coverage can be inconsistent and GW reds and yellows suck big time (I prefer my Tamiya yellows). However, they are a good middle point I guess between the demands of painting 'properly' with Vallejo paints and the ultra rapid short corner cutting Warpaints from Army Painter. A lot of people love their metallic paints, I actually happen to not like them. I quite like the P3 metallics, although American friends tell me Reapers are the best on the market.
As to the new range I honestly can't say what they're like. We'll have to wait and see.
I've been using reveal aqua colours which I've found to work really nicely as long as you always shack them up before use as the pigment and the solvent split up a little if they are left alone for even a few hours where they go really fin and cant be used but keeping that in mind are easy to use. Also they come in a nice pot with a lid that comes off and acts as a little palet for that paint witch I like. They were also a bit cheaper then most other paints I'd seen so that was a plus as I just got back in to wargaimng after a brake for uni and didn't have as much money to spend on paints after buying models.
DeleteI've seen the Revell Aqua paints in a few stores, but in the past when I've tried various Revell formula paints I wasn't too keen on them. But I haven't used these ones, so thanks for giving your thoughts on them.
DeleteI think they'll do fine for the kind of thing they're made for - which is, as you say, getting large armies on the table with the minimum of effort, and following studio schemes for the most part.
ReplyDeleteThat isn't really what I need in a range of paints right now, since the bulk of my large armies are in point of fact painted, and I've learned other ways of getting the job done fast, but I don't begrudge their existence.
No I'm kind of in agreement with you. I guess where I see these is as a range that is maybe not quite as quick as the base coat / dip method of the Warpaint range. BUT, actually allows you to achieve a better standard of painting with minimal effort. There's nothing wrong with that at all.
DeleteIt'll be interesting to see what these are like. I mostly use Vallejo, with a bit of foundry and GW stuff, and generally whenever a paint dries up, it gets replaced with the equivalent VGC. Still, more paint on the market can only be a good thing as it gives a variety. Even if all it does is make the other producers try even harder it can only be good. And if they've expanded the washes I'll definitely take a look, as they're great.
ReplyDeleteStill those pots. How I hate them.
Yeah that's how I started getting into using Vallejo paints too. I'll give these a look though because I guess I'm always open to new options when it comes to painting.
DeleteAs soon as I saw the disclaimer on GW's conversion chart, my heart sank. But not too far - there are only 5 Citadel colors I rely on. Unfortunately , Boltgun metal was moved into the new 'base' line. Which could be extremely shitty if it's anything like the foundation line. Frowny face.
ReplyDeleteI actually had a hate on for the GW paint for a long time, but once the got to the kind of pot they're using now, I was back in pretty quickly. The modeling masterclasses and the guys at massive voodoo had something to do with that as well. Once I got back into 'em, I really began to appreciate their properties. I think the big problem was the shitty color range with the gaping holes in it and all the strange redundancies.
Here's to hoping things are, in fact, better.
I just don't like their current paint range, and I don't like these flip cap pots. So on the one hand I'm personally quite glad to see the back of the current paint range as potentially the new paint range might be something I actually like. I'm keeping my fingers crossed as I'm a pernickety swine who always likes having more options! The spread of colours in the now defunct Citadel range did lead to much to much head scratching from me. I just love my Vallejo and Tamiya paints a bit too much I guess to be REALLY excited about this news. I also have my P3 paints kicking around, my MIG oils and my MIG pigments... owning anymore paint would just feel like overkill. lol.
DeleteI am like you Mr. Frontline, i have paints from loads of manufacturers and would have liked some other pots that doesnt dry out the paint or deposit the lids paintcontents down the back of the pot.
ReplyDeleteBut ill take a look at the white base paint, the glazes and a few others just to give them ago.
Btw have you tried out Vallejos premium and extra opaque paints? I have the red extra Opague, but havent slapped minis with it yet.
I think the pots are a strange one for Games Workshop, but these pots are disliked by pretty much everyone I know. I totally understand why they want to keep a flip top pot given that a lot of their customers are kids who will be painting straight out of the pot so droppers probably won't work for a huge chunk of their customer base. I'll have a look at the base paints myself to see if they're better than the Foundation pants. I'll also look at the Glazes, Shades and those Dry paints.
DeleteAs for the Vallejo Premium paints I've personally never used them myself as I was lead to believe they're more for people using airbrushes to paint images on motorbikes and stuff. Not really miniatures, but perhaps someone can give you a better lowdown on them than I. I have used the Extra Opaques though and they have similar issues to those of the GW Foundation paints. They're a bit thick and can sometimes separate, not quite as bad as the Foundation paints. However, their coverage for me isn't quite as good with some of them. Again not a massive difference really.
Personally, I'm very excited to try out the Base and Shade ranges. Foundation paints were a godsend and the washes almost make painting armies too easy, so I'm definitely psyched for expanded color options in those categories. I'm ambivalent about the Layer range, as I already have a full set of P3 but the specialty offerings from GW have me intrigued.
ReplyDeleteYeah I can understand that. I'm personally interested to see how the base paints work and the shades as well. Don't think I'll ever really use them much but it's a potentially interesting option.
DeleteI will try out the textures line and possibly something from the paint line as well. I don't use the foundation paints and I prefer dropper bottles so this update might be wasted on me. I imagine the name changes will be annoying until the article from WD becomes viral.
ReplyDeleteWell I actually went into the store today and I have to say that the colours they're claiming are the same as the old ones really, really aren't. There's a lot of subtle differences and some really quite big ones. I can see there being a lot of pissed off GW customers over the changes in the paint range now. I happen to think the new colour range makes a bit more sense. Initial impressions:
DeleteBase Paints: OK but way too thick to apply straight to the miniature and watering them down made them dry slightly chalky.
Shades: Don't like the way they dry, seemed to effect the applications of further paint layers over the top. I'll still prefer my watered down paint washes. But they will do the job of speed painting armies really well.
Glazes: Didn't get to use them.
Texture paints: For the cost and size of the pot a complete rip off, stick to the larger and cheaper Vallejo versions.
Drys: Pointless. Just utterly pointless. Don't think they're really needed at all and even if people do still drybrush (I never have) I don't see much difference to using layer paints, speaking of which...
Layers: I really liked the formula on these. They seem stronger and richer in colour pigmentation than the current range and flowed better. Stood up really well to being thinned and still retain their colour well. Not enough to make me want to ditch my Vallejo, P3 and Tamiya paints... BUT... if there is a specific colour in the range I like I'll get it no question.
So basically - if there's some colours that you particularly like in the basic GW range then go for it, but for glazes, washes, and other nice things you should probably shop around?
DeleteFor me personally yes. But for others the Base paints and washes will make the rapid painting of armies really, really easy. It's just not my thing. However, the texture paints are no better than the Vallejo ones and they are bigger pots and cheaper and offer more range I believe, so why bother? The Drys should really get the confused face... o.0 ... just don't see the point myself. I also really like my Vallejo Model Color range the best. I just love painting with them and how they turn out. The Citadel range isn't bad, but on cost per pot and size of pot it's really way more expensive per paint than pretty much every other range going, and it's really no better in my humble opinion. Still it is an improvement on the last range for me.
DeleteI only care about the newer 'glazes' and 'texture' sub-ranges, they might be interesting, and the washes/shades will still be handy. The rest can go to the warp for all I care, didn't need more paints even before I began my switch to Vajello (for cheaper paint that doesn't dry as quickly and comes in squeezy bottles).
ReplyDeleteWe could get by perfectly well with the old paint range, we couldn't get by with a large number of old models and old codicies that have needed updating since forever.
Not a fan, but at least it isn't another Marine book.
Also, I am getting tired of this cloak and dagger advertisement nonsense, tell us what comes out when a few months in advance to let us save up money.
Yeah the Glazes are something I'll be interested in. I tend to mix my own sorts of glazes and stuff in other paint ranges with various mediums and wetting agents. Having a few 'core colours' pre-mixed in handy glaze form would be really useful.
DeleteAs for the teasers trailers and video's... yeah they're really lame and not very well done. Part of me wanders whether they understand that it does more harm than good with some of their customers. But what about the younger kids who don't frequent Dakka Dakka et al? Does it get them excited? Because that's now their core business.
I'd rather they spend their time and money updating the armies that *need* updates, like Tau, Eldar, Wood Elves, Sisters of Battle (properly), Bretonnia and so forth.
DeleteAbout the young kids issue/theory, I don't know enough about it to make an argument over where they perceive their demographic or whatever, but I think the fluff is being compromised to be less 'grimdark' and more 'epic' and perhaps a little more generic; possibly because of little kids, possibly because they want to be more mainstream, and I think that direction is a mistake.
Mate you know I wouldn't disagree with a single thing you've said, but sadly that's the direction they seem overly keen to take, and that's their prerogative. It's not the direction for me personally but only time will tell whether it's a wise commercial decision.
DeleteI've tried the new paints as well and I must say that in my experience that the base paints were made of bloody awesome and that I didn't have to thin them at all.
ReplyDeleteWhite base on white undercoat, perfect layer in one go, I've never been able to do that with any other paint before without thinning the white severely and apply several layers.
Shades are flowing perfectly, a lot better than the old washes, seeking out every nook and cranny instead of splotching up somewhere on the surface.
About the bases, they will dry in clumps if you apply a large blotch regardless of wether you thin them or not. I found this out by accident when I knocked over the white base and got some of it on my fingers. Instead of drying in the usual splotches, it dried in clumps that came off easily and just left a layer of pigment dust on the skin.
These paints are perfect for me from what I have seen. I'm actually growing tired of the dropbottles after prolonged use. I've also never had your experience with GW paints drying up inside the new bottles they are using. I guess I'm lucky, now the old ones with the screwlid, oh gods the dryage.
And as luck would have it there's a colour that's the exact one I've spent close to 20 euro mixing. I don't feel trolled at all >.<
I still maintain those Base paints will require thinning and maybe some wetting agents to help them flow properly and not clog up fine detail. That's my personal opinion after spending a fair bit of time with them now. The shades aren't necessarily my thing if I'm honest, but then again neither were the old washes or the inks prior to that, I've always referred using thinned washes of actual paint or washes with too much wetting agent to help them pool and separate. Just the way I was taught to paint.
DeleteAs I said in the article though, I think these paints are a good thing and I personally think the bases look like an improvement on Foundation Paints, and I'll be interested to spend some time with their glazes to see if they're any good. As for the pots drying out, it's not just me that's had that issue, it seems to be a very common problem with these pots. However, I've noticed some of the tops now have a more rubbery top that seems like in might offer a better air tight seal. I'll keep an eye out to see if that is indeed the case. As for dropper bottles... I love them and always have.
Reading your paint and painting articles got me wanting to get started on my pile of Infinity models. Problem is I'm a bit afraid I'll ruin them. I did some internet research, but I'm getting mixed information. So I'd like to go for the 'authority argument' and just ask you if you don't mind :p If it matters, my paint of choice is VMC mostly, but I own VGC as well.
ReplyDeleteWhat most people agree upon is that I should thin my paints. But then it gets tricky. Do I just use water? Or matte medium? A mix of the two? Do I need other additives like flow aid or drying retarder?
I'm currently using GW white primer, but I'm hearing that's not a primer at all. Just white paint. And that I'll be better of with a real primer. Do you have any recommendations?
And lastly, you say the Tamiya paints act differently compared to other paints. Do you use them for specific tasks or specific effects?
Sorry for all the questions so soon. Don't feel like you have to respond (quickly) btw!
ps: I put this in the comments because I thought the answer might be usefull for other beginning painters. I you prefer I send it in a mail, just let me know.
I'm not too sure I'm the authoritative figure you are seeking!!! But I'll give it a go.
DeleteThinning paints is tricky. It's why miniature paint ranges such as Citadel and Army Painter try to remove that from the equation as much as they can. there is however no easy answer, I'm sorry.
I tend to thin my paints depending on feel. There's no magic formula that I can give you. Sometimes I use wetting agents like washing up liquid or floor polish, other times I don't. It's just trial and error.
The whole Primer vs Undercoat thing has always honestly flummoxed me. The phrases are used so interchangeably now that I often get lost. Both though are there to do the same thing which is provide a layer of paint or primer or whatever to allow the easy application of top layers of paint and for that paint to adhere to the miniature.
However, what I have found is that paints that call themselves primers tend to offer a smoother surface and a tougher surface at that. I tend to use automotive primers from Halfords. The GW undercoats and undercoats from other companies tend to offer a rougher surface to paint on, and I've often found it's not as durable, and can lead to chips. Especially on metal miniatures.
I sort of do use my Tamiya paints for very different things. They seem to add a sort of plastic layer to miniatures and often I'll use them to put the first base coat on a miniature, because they tend to take further layers of paint and effects really well in my experience. I use their clear paints as glazes and washes when thinned, mucg like people use GW washes like Devlan mud.
Well, I feared as much. But considering I can be a bit lazy, I found no harm in asking :) I'll simply have to give it all a go then!
DeleteHmm, I'll have a look around for automotive primers and failing that, there's a shop near me that sells both Vallejo and Tamiya primer. They sell the paint range as well, so I'll be having a look either way :)
Thanks for the information! Guess I have no choice but to give it all a bash now :p Wish me luck!