I had to start with a picture of one that got away. Dr Brainiac is still kicking me for this! |
This is a pretty much becoming a more and more contentious issue for many hobbyists and collectors. It was actually quite rare to spot Special Edition miniatures only a few years back. They were thankfully pretty rare and actually weren't that 'special' or 'limited' in the first place. However, there have been more and more grumbles over this sort of thing going on in the last few years. Perhaps it's because we're all becoming more and more grumpy... hey look it's a possibility, some of us are turning into right miserable tossers. It could also be because more and more of these 'special edition' or 'limited edition' miniatures are being linked to certain products, promotions and events, that by their very nature are elitist and exclusive. That and there seems to be more and more of them being released for everything nowadays. Partially it has been brought on by the explosion in the shear number of smaller games starting up, it also has had some pretty strong links with the growing popularity of crowd funding, but there's also that old chestnut of convention exclusive miniatures.
I'll tell you where I stand on such things philosophically, I don't like them. I never have, not because I don't like alternative sculpts, because I do, no it is more to do with the fact that I'm not a big fan of anything that further ostracizes certain people from certain aspects of our community. I am, however, a big fat giant hypocrit on it as a topic, because despite me thinking its a bit wrong for them to exist on the one hand... guess what? I'm the first chump in line to buy them when I can. I once had a good chuckle when a friend of mine explained to a young kid that the reason he had a cool limited edition Games Workshop miniature from a Games Day, and the young kid didn't was because he was around the company when they were first starting out, and he was supporting them then. This kid paused, scrunched his nose up and said, "so I'm being punished for not being old enough?", you know what? The little kid had a point. These sorts of miniatures are like a badge of honour for some of the worst elitist behaviour you'll see in our hobby.
It's kinda like people who turn up to big stadium concerts in faded out tour T-shirts 'proving' they were following the band before they became 'big'. I once had a guy at a David Bowie gig tell me he was there at the beginning in such a snobbish way, I wanted to ensure he never got to see another Bowie concert again, because he'd be six foot under! I settled for telling the grumpy old git so was my mom. But, these sorts of miniatures play into this sort of behaviour, and ultimately can serve to exclude those who come to a game late, because they didn't know about it, or they weren't in the right place at the right time. Or as that kid said... they were simply born too late! For instance recently I was hit by a number of unfortunate bills the month of Cool Mini or Not's Zombiecide Kickstarter campaign. I really, really wanted to fund the game because I was really excited about the way it looked, plus it's zombies, so I wanted to support it. Real life though conspired to screw me over, and I'm sure I wasn't the only one, or indeed I can't be the only person to have been in that situation with crowd funding campaigns. In many cases that is it once they're over, you can never get your hands on those limited special edition miniatures ever again. The boat has sailed, and you missed it my good friend.
Wyrd are famous for their limited edition Gen Con mini's |
To a hopeless geek like me this is an agonizing situation to be in. I can fully understand companies needing to do things to say thanks to those of us who have helped fund their products, and give us a little something extra. It also encourages hopeless shiny addicts like me to part with our hard earned cash to support them too, and I'm guessing it must be sodding effective at it as well. However, there have been a number of Kickstarter related special edition grumbles of late. Most notably from my perspective centered around another of Cool Mini or Not's highly successful Kickstarter campaigns, Relic Knights. Yep Soda Pop Miniatures candy coloured wargame with big anime hair and even bigger anime boobs! Now the main grumbles revolved around the inclusion of some special edition Super Dungeon Explore miniatures being included in the Relic Knights Kickstarter. The complaints were thus:
- As it was a Relic Knights Kickstarter having Super Dungeon Explore miniatures as stretch goal targets wasn't giving out rewards that were really for those who wanted to support Relic Knights.
- Conversely it got Super Dungeon Explore players all riled up because they didn't want to have to buy into a 'wargame' like Relic Knights, which they had no interest, just to gain access to the rights to buy miniatures for a game they did want to support.
Boy, talk about being between a rock and a hard place. Now I'm going to be honest here, neither argument instantly occurred to me. I just viewed them as a pretty cool crossover products between two of Soda Pop's game franchises for their fans to enjoy, a nice thank you if you will.
If you're a fan of Soda Pop, the the Relic Knight Kickstarter gave you lots of cool options. |
However, can I see the grumbles of the two camps? I guess so, they both sort of had a point to an extent. In the blue corner we have those who have decided they wanted to support Relic Knights, in effect being offered bonuses for Super Dungeon Explore, a game they might not have the slightest bit of interest in. Now I might look at such things as a blessing and say "phew at least I don't have to drop anymore cash on this", but others clearly felt these bonuses weren't for them, or indeed the campaign they were backing. They felt like their support wasn't going to fund what they wanted, in a way that's interesting, because in other forms of traditional funding you have to bend over backwards to keep your backers happy. Then in the red corner we have the Super Dungeon Explore fans who felt really pissed off about having to back a Kickstarter campaign they had no interest in, just to gain access to the privilege of buying the Super Dungeon Explore miniatures they wanted. There have been some seriously snarky comments about this on various websites, one such angry discussion was had on the Soda Pop Miniatures Facebook page. So there they were, Soda Pop Miniatures standing in the middle of the ring between two angry heavy weights.
To be fair to Soda Pop Miniatures, they did at least rectify the complaints of the Super Dungeon Explore camp, by allowing people to trade in their chosen pledge options for credit to get the miniatures you actually wanted, i.e. those Super Dungeon Explore miniatures. But what do companies do when running these crowd funding campaigns? There has to be some reward for those actually backing the product, and I guess special edition miniatures ticks that box quite resoundingly doesn't it? What other options do they have? Moving away from crowd funding for a while I want to talk about 'tie-in' special edition miniatures. You know, bribery and corruption linked products. One of the worst examples, or best depending on where you sit on the debate, for me was the limited edition Infinity miniature that came bundled with early purchases of the Battlefoam Alpha bag for Infinity. Now to be clear, on some level the Yuan Yuan with his own little Infinity bag was a really cool little treat for those of us who had pre-ordered the bag, and really wanted one of those bags any way. That's how I viewed it at first.
Yet there were many more in the community who really didn't like the precedent this set for Corvus Belli. I was one of them. The Infinity community had been quite a welcoming and inclusive place, and still is, but these sort of limited edition mini's that only certain people can get access to, threatens to drive wedges I think between companies and those unfortunate gamers who don't have access to them. Especially if you don't want the product they're being bundled with, and lets be honest here Battlefoam bags are pretty expensive. Whether you think they're worth the money or not is a moot point, they do cost a lot of money. True there are other Yuan Yuan miniatures already available for those of us who wish to field the unit, and thankfully they're mercenaries, so at least one faction wasn't getting a new shiny bauble while the rest of them got short shrift... but, for many it clearly left a bitter taste in the mouth. People who had supported the game right from the very beginning, during the first edition expansion years and growing pains. People who had run demo games and spread the word for them, many felt badly treated. Oh and yes, I do have the miniature and the Battlefoam bag... as I said I'm a hypocrit!
At least you could order it off of the Privateer Press website. |
These tie-ins are a little too cynical for my liking. I was always going to be purchasing the Battlefoam Infinity Alpha bag. It was always going to be a day one purchase for me, I didn't need any incentive to buy the product. I'm not even sure the limited edition miniature would have been enough to induce me if I hadn't wanted the bag any way. I mean £75.60 for a single miniature seems a bit steep! I guess that's the problem though if you actually wanted the miniature, but not the bag. These sorts of product tie-ins aren't the only sucky tie-ins in our hobby though. The other really sucky tie-ins that drives me utterly nuts is convention only miniatures! Arrrggghhh!!! Seriously, you expect me to have to buy a return flight plane ticket to the mid-west of America from the UK, book a hotel room for multiple nights... all to just buy a one off convention miniature for a faction, or a game I've loved to bits for years, and supported to grow in my area? Pardon my French, but... fuck you, fuck you very kindly! I must apologise for my foul language, I don't normally resort to such base and coarse language, but genuinely I feel that strongly about it. This is a phenomenon that has always ground my gears, and will continue to grind them for as long as this practice goes on. Wyrds elongated Nightmare Ted or Lord Chompy Bits anyone?
Along with Lord Chompy Bits possibly the most sought after MoFaux miniatures. |
It must be the same for you poor sods in North America when you see our European convention special edition miniatures I guess. It blows donkey balls, and is really unfair to a great swathe of our community, whichever side of the pond you are lucky enough to live on. I have no idea how shafted our Australasian buddies must feel like on this score though. Think about it, those poor buggers are getting a dick in each ear! Then after those meat truncheons have beaten them about their head, they get a proper tea bagging by having everything they buy normally cost ridiculous amounts of money too. At least us Europeans and Americans only get a single dick in one ear, but that's bad enough! I'd like to ask all companies that continue with this shitty practice why the hell do you do it? Honestly, is it not bad enough that some of us can't get to these chuffing conventions in the first place that we so desperately would love to attend, that you have to go and rub it in further by saying "hey and it's the only way you're going to get this cool miniature"... really? Seriously, at least buy me a drink first before you shaft me roughly from behind you swines!
Another of Privateer Presses Convention only mini's. |
I would love to get over to the States to be able to do the convention scene over there. Just because I think it's be cool to see how you yanks do it. I'll do it one year I'm sure of it, probably go to Comic Con too... I don't need extra incentives as a Brit stuck thousands of miles away to attend these cool events. I really, really don't. So why the hell do firms do it? Part of me thinks it actually has very little to do with rewarding fans and giving back to the community as some say. Certainly in terms of Gen Con I get the feeling it's more to do with willy waving. Seeing, which company has the coolest limited edition stuff available... or limited release pre-production miniatures. It is chest beating at its worst if you ask me, and ultimately it serves to ostracise those of us unfortunate enough to have been born in the wrong country. I know that Privateer Press allowed us to order there convention only releases this year, but why the hell were they not at European conventions like Salute? I mean have they fixed their online store for the rest of the world yet? I remember being told not that long ago I had to pay $50's shipping for some parts for a conversion I wanted to do that cost only $5's... yeah I passed on that!
So as I say recently there has been the phenomenon of companies actually putting convention miniatures up on their websites for purchase while the conventions are going on. I for one applaud this behaviour, even though it's not exactly solving the problem. It does at least alleviate some of the issues around such miniature releases. But, what happens if your entire business has been built around limited edition miniatures? I have to say I am a huge fan of both Studio McVey and Kingdom Death miniatures. Things like the Flower Knight from Kingdom Death are a work of beauty, and deserve to be shared with as wide an audience as is possible. Yet currently they're strictly limited runs, far more so than say the limited runs of Studio McVey, which are themselves runs of only 750 miniatures! It has driven me utterly nuts to wake up, brush the sleep from my eyes, and have my morning coffee. Only to spit it out all over my computer screen, as I realise that yet again while I was sleeping Kingdom Death launched, and sold out of a miniature I would have really liked to have purchased! Genuinely the only reason I haven't reviewed some of their gorgeous miniatures I've been lucky enough to purchase from Kingdom Death over the years is because it'd just be cruel to you all.
For a truly beautifully painted version go here!!! |
Think about it, I'd be awarding 9.5's out of 10, and the cats would no doubt be giving approval badges left right and center... for what?... Miniatures you can't get hold of anymore. It's like dangling a roast beef dinner in front of a starving homeless person, and then whipping it away from them and scoffing the lot. Just too cruel, and certainly not cool in my book! The only hope is that when Adam Poots gets his magnum opus out the door we'll all be able to eventually gain free and ready access to these fantastic sculpts... or at least I hope so! What Studio McVey and Kingdom Death clearly show though is that by creating this demand they are able to actually force up demand to such a level that they can ensure a volume of sales that keeps them ticking over nicely as a business thank you. Who are we to complain if they've found a legitimate strategy to finance their existence? Well we're nobody, that's who, it works for them. Is there an incentive for them to change this attitude or approach right now? Sadly I don't think so, which means I must religiously keep all my electronic devices near me at all times to ensure I don't ever miss out again. So far I've been relatively lucky compared to most, because I'm obsessive, but every one that gets away irks me some more. I'd love to hear what others think about this topic I really, really would. Peace out!
I agree with you (and yes, I own a whole slew of limited edition miniatures..)
ReplyDeleteI love me some Kingdom Death or Studio McVey models. Thing is, I love them because they are such awesome sculpts, not because they are limited. Y'Sala and Darkness is in my mind the prettiest miniature ever concieved and I'll never own one because they sold out before I knew the McVey's existed. But then, I guess there are worse things that could happen :)
It's less bad with Kingdom Death I think because of the reruns. I know these tend to sell out quickly as well, but I do get another shot at them even though I'm a relatively new addition to this hobby. But like you, I hope all that awesome will be readily available with the release of the game!
As to the Infinity miniatures, I don't really get them. I (will) own both, but because of the products they came with. Not because of the miniatures themselves.
As for the convention miniatures I'm going to borrow something from another blogger whose writting and style I admire:
-_-
Here's to hoping I don't sound too bitter! :p
PS: Miniature companies of the world, keep making those tie-ins and convention only miniatures. But please make sure they are butt ugly. Thanks!
I love pretty looking miniatures, I'd buy them even if they weren't limited. What I find even more galling is when people buy huge multiples of such mini's and then wait until they're sold out to sell them on eBay. The amount of first run Kingdom Death and Studio McVey mini's that end up like this for sale at £100+ drives me nuts. I'd never do that to a fellow hobbyist... I just wouldn't do it.
DeleteThe convention mini's though do drive me slightly nutty.
Oh man, let's just say those people are assholes. I've got some more colourfull descriptions but I'll keep it civil.
DeleteThere are some people who seem to be able to turn a damn fine profit with such activity A_G. Maybe I'm just bitter they thought of it first and are able to do it... but I just think it's a bit too sly for me. I have sold some limited edition mini's that I've had, like some Games Day mini's to people who really wanted them... but never more than the probable RRP of such mini's... and often I give them away if it's to a friend that really wants them for a project.
DeleteI understand the economics behind it, I do. But to deprive others who actually want the damn of their chance, I just don't like it.
DeleteThat's not to say no one can sell a limited edition. I'm not even saying you can't make a bit of profit if you do sell some of your collection and you're in need of cash. But it's the systematically buying of large quantities for the sole sake of profit that does it.
Yep and I agree A_G. There are a number of eBay seller who I know drip feed limited edition and special edition miniatures onto eBay over a protracted period and it's clear they've brought them to sell on at a later date for inflated prices. I guess though if limited edition miniatures exist that's always the risk you run.
DeleteI do agree on the whole limited edition miniature thing. I liked what they used to do for the limited edition miniatures for AE-WWII in that they were only ever in stock during conventions, and during that time you could also buy them from the online store. They didn't charge you stupid amounts for shipping either.
ReplyDeleteWhat annoyed me even more was limited edition models that were more than just alternate sculpts. Rackham used to do this for Confrontation, and it annoyed me no end. Having some people have characters that others never will is frustrating to say the least.
As for the Relic Knights thing, yes I was one of those people slightly miffed. I backed it, and while I like the look of SDE, I haven't got it, nor can I afford it right now, so when they kept chucking out the SDE stretch goals it got a little tiresome to say the least. It's not the game I backed. I can also see the other side of the argument as well. Again it's for people who support the whole company, who play all their games, and anyone else gets excluded.
At the same time, I am as much of a hypocrite as you say you are. I buy them, cause they're cool, cause I like owning something that you can't ever get again, or only at limited times or whatever.
As I said in the article Mecha Ace I was not instantly aware of this viewpoint re the SDE mini's in the Relic Knights Kickstarter. However, once it was pointed out to me I did have a degree of sympathy over it. But, I could also see it from Soda Pop's point of view.
DeleteI think we're all hypocrites where this phenomenon is concerned though aren't we? We I stop buying SE and LE miniatures? Hell no!!! I'll continue to stalk Studio McVey and Kingdom Deaths website as well. I just wished that some of these miniatures weren't limited. Not necessarily for my own purposes either, because 9 times out of 10 I end up getting the ones I want, but for all those poor sods out there who aren't as fortunate as I am.
This is actually one of the few things that doesn't bother me, or at least, not in the way it bothers you FG. Here's why, and bear in mind that I am largely talking about Games Workshop at this point as I don't collect wargames from anyone else yet:
ReplyDeleteI've said it before but not for nothing: As much fun as it is to collect and paint minatures, if I didn't think I was going to get a game out of it when I'd finished I wouldn't do it. These days when I'm building up an army I've usually got a plan for it, or at least 'blocks' of plans where I'll collect, say, 500 points of an army at a time then move on to another one. As long as there is a minature available that can do what I want it to do, or if there isn't then it's not too much of a boggle to kit-bash one, then I actually don't mind what minatures I'm using. So no one's going to impress me by telling me that there's an exclusive minature for Games Day, or whatever, for an army that I don't even collect.
What annoys me is when minatures are exclusive to a certain boxed set, and you have to spend a dispropotionately high amount of money on it to get the model you want. Most obvious example for me would be the Assualt on Black Reach set for 5th Edition 40; that was the only way you could get either the Dreadnought with the Multi-Melta or the Ork Deffkoptas. As they were charging £60 for it when it was taken off the shelves, that's a lot of money for just 1/3 models...
Sometimes I do come across limited edition minatures. These currently are the Games Day 2009 Chaos Lord, because I worked that particular Games Day, and also the Dark Angels Chaplain that comes with the new 40K Dark Vengeance set. I had the latter for my birthday so thinking about it I haven't actually paid for either. I've built and painted the Chaos Lord and I fully intend to do so with the Chaplain as well (large boxes of models scare me and I haven't opened it yet.) What I'm not going to do is sell the limited models on Ebay or something like that, because that's not what I do. If I've got a model I want to see it on the table kicking ass, not sitting in its packet waiting for an obessive collecter to buy it for ten times the amount it was paid for, if at all! So, if I have one, I'll paint it, and I'll use it.
But I won't go out looking for them.
Ah yes but your hobbyu seems very different to mine. I will happily buy a cool loking mini to build a diorama or to paint and put on display. True I'm a fervent gamer, but I like the other aspects of the hobby just as much. As to the point of paying over the odds for miniatures bundle in certain ways, I too can express some anger at such practices. Corvus Belli had a knack of grouping 1 cool miniature I'd want in starters that I didn't. So buying 6 mini's when all I wanted was 1. As I like to say... really grinds my gears!!! So I feel your wallet pain in those circumstances.
DeleteI think this is more of an issue where the miniatures are connected directly to a particular game and would give their owner a particular advantage.
ReplyDeleteConvention Specials, like the ones for going to Salute are fine - they are just cool minis that you may (or not) be able to use, but won't be available elsewhere.
Limited edition figures that would just be basic grunts, with no special in-game characteristics, would also be fine in my opinion.
Specials that you need to complete a faction, but can only get by buying another product which you may not need are (again in my opinion) shameful on the part of the company/ies involved.
I can see that logic, as Mecha Ace mentions this limited edition as uber gaming piece was a favourite of Rackham circe Confrontation... boy did I hate that!
DeleteHowever, for me I'm just as likely to want a miniature to paint and put on a nice plinth as I am to want a nice mini to go in my army. Sure I'm no Ali McVey or Angel Giraldez, but putting nice looking miniatures on display is as much a part of my hobby as painting an army to put on the tabletop.
I live in Chile, so basically the same problem as people in Australia. Now imagine my happiness, this year I went to GenCon, wanted the PP con-exclusives but they were sold out before I was able to get to their booth. I had no internet access at the time, so I missed them. Hopefully they will show up in the store at some point but I was pissed off for a couple of days.
ReplyDeleteOh wow... just wow! That would have truly sucked. You have my deepest sympathies there man. What a total kick in the Balkans!!! You make it to the USA for GenCon from Chile and then its sold out?!?! I would so totally have been in full on sulk mode.
Delete...and I hated the Infinity promo... shipping of a bag of foam to Chile means doubling the price, so way out of proportion for an already expensive bag.
ReplyDeleteWow... that too is extremely sore. I just think these sorts of activity bite the big one. I think often the companies involved don't think of the ramifications globally for their fanbase.
DeleteLike AG, I only buy a model because I like it (like the Bombardier up there). I hate having to decide RIGHT NOW if I can get away with buying something that I really like. Yesterday I pledged to the Low Life Miniatures kickstarter (ending in about an hour) and was really tempted to add the Karmasuturist model, but that would have been an extra $40, so I passed. I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks that's too steep, as only 1 person has bought one out of 100.
ReplyDeleteI would have been irate about the Soda Pop crossover, too. I can understand trying to promote the whole company, but I think crowd funding sites are the wrong place for it.
Yeah, I get why people get a bit pissy with some of the crowd funding options that get banded around. I had someone say it'd be like the Dreadball Kickstarter offering limited edition Kings of War miniatures. Again a quite good analogy actually. I guess I just didn't see an issue with it as they were add on sales any way... but the SDE fans out there had some genuine concerns I guess.
DeleteI just had a look at my shelf and realised I own something like thirty LE minis. Admittedly most of them are McVey Sedition Wars resins, but man, that's actually a lot really...
ReplyDeleteI can somewhat agree with the Kingdom Death and McVey resins being limited. My understanding is that the moulds they use are very time consuming and ticky to get right and they also wear out quickly, so I can see that it would simply be a matter of time vs money.
That said, Hasslefree minis have a great system - they sometimes release limited high quality resins alongside the regular metal mini of the same sculpt. It gives those who crave a super fancy version the opportunity, but doesn't limit the sculpt's availability (which I think is inexcusable for a metal mini).
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My first thought on people getting angry at SDE stretch bonuses was "seriously? They've got how much money and you're worried it's going to take away from Relic Knights?"
It was good of Soda Pop to allow people who really just wanted them to buy in - I think that was more a side effect of how the Kickstarter pledges work and unexpected success than any malicious or thoughtless intent.
Yeah I have a mega crapton of Studio McVey stuff... and I love and cherish it all. They will all get lovingly detailed paint jobs eventually. But they're such special miniatures I only ever commit paint to miniature when I know what it is I want to do with them.
DeleteI understand the whole mould deterioration thing with Studio McVey and Kingdom Death... but then you see new runs on some of the Kingdom Death stuff and I think... o_0
I don't know enough about what the pressures / costs of such things are tbh with you. SO I'm not judging either company, and they're clearly doing what is best for their profitability and I 100% respect them for that.
As to the SDE mini's during Relic Knight, like you I was a little taken aback by it all. I didn't expect it one bit, and when I read some of the anger and vitriol I really couldn't believe how strong some of the reactions were... and I think many were disproportionate. I too don't think SPM were being malicious when they came up with the SDE miniatures I bet they were thinking hey these will be cool things to give to our fans. I have to be honest, I thought they looked pretty cool.
I prolly wouldn't be so burnt about missing limited edition minis if they weren't so much friggin' cooler than the regular versions.
ReplyDelete-_-
They do it deliberately you know. Make them all super cool and with awesome dripping off of them. It's not right I tell you.
DeleteI am not sure, but my understanding is that a mold for a resin mini runs to about 100 casts. So for a run of say 750, if that is the case, Studio Mcvey are probably going through several molds. therefore the number of casts is probably a considered business decision.
ReplyDeleteThat said, isn't everything Limited Edition by definition? There is no infinite supply of anything, which gets compounded when a game/line dies out (like pre-PPP metal and resin Confrontation minis).
Yeah I understand that the moulds for resin miniatures degrade at a greater rate than say metal miniatures, the latex dries out quicker. But I guess the way I figure it if the economics works for the first 100, it should work for the first 1000. It'd be interesting to ask those questions I guess. Part of me thinks it's more a time issue with Kingdom Death. Adam is a one man show doing an awful lot of things on his own and I just don't think he has enough hours in the day to help support bigger production runs, the same is probably true of Studio McVey.
DeleteAs to the infinite supply thing that is true to a point. However, if the company exists, and you want to buy a miniature, they'll still sell it you if its a general release. as for the Conforntation mini rares... hmmm... I hear that Legacy Miniatures are considering continuing the practice. If that is the case I am dissapoint! -_-
It is okay FG, I was just stirring the pot and playing devil's advocate - hope you didn't mind!
DeleteIn reality my stance is much like yours, I want an equitable access for all, yet have sought out various LE minis, and even OOP minis from companies going strong; witness the 12+ Zoats I picked up over the past couple of years in the after-market. Now should I be disgruntled with GW for not producing new Zoats (or even their old ones) today?
I don't think the LE thing will ever go away as long as it serves a purpose, and I think the evidence is that it does. It draws attention, and is great for launches.
Plus look at games with demo-programs; the guys doing the demos often have access to something cool and possibly limited fro their efforts. Is that fair reward? Probably, at least in my opinion.
Still, 'twas an interesting article. :)
No of course I don't mind you stirring the pot... as long as it doesn't include being sexist, racist or whateverist.
DeleteA lot of my Sunday Sermons are attempts at stirring the pot to get people thinking. Nothing wrong with it at all.
Like you I'm still gutted there isn't someone out there producing certain discontinued miniatures that I want. Still life sucks like that!!!
I can get behind this completely as I more often than not I love the limited edition alternative models but like you I would prefer if they were not limited edition but just an alternative that is always available along side the original maybe at a slightly higher cost if the quality warrants it.
ReplyDeleteI have no problem with Premium miniatures, if they're always there for peeps to buy. In a way that's exactly what Forge World is. I could just be a grumpy git though like a friend has just texted... screw you buddeh!!!
DeleteLimited edition miniatures used to bother me, but so did retired figures, and anything currently or soon-to-be out of production. Age has tempered my tendency towards obsessive collecting; these days I accept that there are many things that I cannot have and will never get the opportunity to buy.
ReplyDeleteI understand limited edition convention miniatures, there are something unique that says 'I was there.' Most people will never have a chance to get them, and that's the point. Sometimes its a little disappointing, but such is life.
As for companies those primary stock and trade is producing limited edition miniatures it seems to me a case of creating scarcity. These are very, very small companies and the limited edition tag lets them run off a few hundred figures that are guaranteed to sell out and generate immediate revenue. The accountant in me is somewhat suspect of that business model, but it seems to work for them.
Yeah I too don't get quite how companies can spend so much on getting a sculpt produced, only then to limit the amount they sell and still get it to work. It's not like Kingdom Death or Studio McVey are charging silly amounts for the miniatures they produce. In fact they're comparable to many mainstream game companies products , and in some cases far more reasonable.
DeleteI'm not somebody who would go buy a miniature from say Studio McVey if I didn't like it and fully intend to paint it. I've actually passed up buying a good number of Limited Edition miniatures, simply because I didn't want them, or didn't feel I'd like painting them.
Strangely, I quite like Limited Edition or Specials and feel that when I do get hold of one (by hook or by crook) I feel I have achieved something.
ReplyDeleteI have never felt cheated by not being able to purchase one because I was not at the convention/show but do enjoy picking one up as a gift for supporting a company when they are releasing a new game or supplement.
One great thrill for me is to pick up some long-lost or rare mini at some knock-down price in a rummage box at a show (yes it does happen).
So in summary - I cannot get too worked up over this point.
Tony
Well it's always good to get an alternative view. I do think there are things for which I think Limited Edition miniatures are worthwhile. At the launch of a game or product or something, I see that. Or for people doing demo games for companies and devoting their own time... hell yeah those peeps deserve more than a pat on a back for their tireless efforts, but sometimes I feel like it's all gone a bit too far with the amount the industry seems to be churning out.
DeleteI seriously am getting sick of Limited Edition stuff in this hobby. I hate feeling like I have to "jump" to get what I want and buy now or wind up taking the risk of paying 3-5x as much trying to get it on Ebay later.
ReplyDeleteGW is the worst in this regard - like the LE edition of the new starter set - pony up $100+ now to get the Chaplain, or track him down on Ebay in a few months for $25. (Also annoying, the LE spell cards and whatnot that accompany every release now). Especially with their "limit" of 10 copies per customer. They practically guarantee the products will be bought up by re-sellers.
Wyrd is also really annoying. I saw a preview of some very bad-ass Malifaux models and was bummed to learn I wouldn't be able to get any of them. (Talking about the hanging tree and others that made the rounds a month or so ago). Con exclusives and "press-ganger"- only. Nuts to that.
IMO - Freebooter Miniatures does it close to right. They release ONE "limited" edition mini every year. It goes out to all the major retailers, (Maelstrom, etc) and they tend to make enough that the LE is available for a year or more. (I've bought several that were years old and still readily available).
The other way to handle a "Limited Edition" release - and IMO the best way to do it is to release it early, then again some time later. That way you can sell your 1,000 copies quickly, to people who really want it. (And get the quick cash infusion that I think is the point of most LE releases) But then make it available as a general release product a year later so that people who want it won't have to drop everything to scramble to try to buy it.
I don't really mind Henchmen or Press Gangers etc getting access to special miniatures only they get, because honestly the amount of time they put into developing the hobby for us all is worth more than limited edition mini's. I think that's the least they deserve.
DeleteAs for the rest of it... yeah... bollocks to that! :P
But I do love me some Studio McVey and Kingdom death etc. mainly because they produce beautiful looking miniatures. Just a shame more people aren't able to enjoy them isn't it?
I have never really gotten into limited edition minis. Maybe it is just that I do not get out to events like I should. Or that I play dead games so that the limited edition parts are so out of print that I have no shot at worrying about them. There are more than enough standard outprint minis for the games that my wallet cannot stand it. I did recently snag a most of a limited release blood bowl team which was cool for me without crushing my bank account.
ReplyDeleteWhat has gotten to me recently is the limited edition rulebooks. Minis last a long time but rulebooks become at best shelf weights in a few years.
Ah yes... the limited edition rulebook... and now Codex!!! Good move GW. Wait what you want me to pay £20 more for a lame cover and a bit of string? o_0 ... erm... come again?
DeleteMan I used to own every Blood Bowl mini right from all second ed stuff up to all the weird team they brought out towards the end of it. I owned every fecking Star Player as well... then some shit stole an awful lot of it. If I ever find out for sure who did that they're losing the ability to walk via forcible removing of their knee caps!!!
Trying to get out of print miniatures can be a right pain in the proverbial. I know a friend who is still trying to complete a number of Man o' War fleets. He has one of every miniature ever released and I've told him I'd help create resin casts for personal use, but nope, he wants the actual miniatures. I think he's mad, but I admire his commitment to his chosen cause.
Some part of me really hopes they won't be able shift that overpriced piece of redundancy, I'm guessing they will.
DeleteI recieced a mail from Black Library yesterday. They're doing a limited edition Horus Heresy novella. You can only buy it for a week. My mind = blown.
I'm 100% sure it'll sell out in double quick time A_G. I'm also certain that you'll see copies on sale at eBay shortly too. Its the way of the world. You make something limited, and by its very nature it'll be worth more to some people. Precious metals are limited, hence the reason people are willing to pay so much for them. The irony for me is I prefer the standard Chaos Space Marine Codex cover to the Limited Edition one!!!
DeleteSpecial Chaos Marine Codex sold out in like a day here in the states. Sorry to hear about that loss of a massive sounding collection. About half of my 2nd edition stuff dates from back then with the remainder from ebay more recently (last 7 years). It was pretty hard to get GW stuff in the States in the late 80's. We had 1 store that sold it about 30 minute drive away but they did not stock a ton so when we would get our mom to take use over there (or a few years later when my brother got his car) they would often have 1 blister for this team and 1 for another so we ended up with a few humans, few orcs, dwarces, and a ton of skaven since I think it took me like 5 blisters to get a reasonable team. They started selling team boxes later which made it easier but I think we only got elf and dark elf ones of those.
DeleteDoesn't surprise me at all with regards the special edition Chaos Codex. It's the first time they've done anything like that with a codex and more importantly if rumours are to be believed it was insanely limited edition for such a big release. Yeah getting some of the BB stuff first time round was hard enough.
DeleteI know Frontline, I know. I just don't get it, that's all :)
DeleteWhat we as consumers are effectively telling GW is that we'll buy anything for a large price increase as long as they splatter a bit of blood on small portion of their normal product.
And I've had a few years of psychology training so I know why this is and I know I'll have been under this influence as well. But still o.O
ReplyDeleteWorst of All :
Rackham ... limited edition at high price .. with uber-cheating profile
Unfair advantage for those who have them
This politic has a name : "Pay To Win"
Even if we now discover that this so called LE were amoung the most produced miniature from R.
Frankly .. i dont like LE and i dont buy them. I understand that what is rare is beautiful.
But frankly explain me in an industrial society ... what is a limited miniature when the compagny owns the green and the mold ?
It is like "numerical limited edition" or "unique skin for software or game" ... it has no sense. Except in a marketing world.
And to come back to Rackham .. since now 2 years i am trying to recover all the miniatures released by the dragon.
The LE are absolutely not the most difficult to find.
The most difficult miniature to find are the most pretty standard released during 2005 2006 ...
The most expensive ones are not :
The oldest ones
The most "limited" ones
... just the most pretty
What is beautiful is rare not the contrary
Ah yes, Rackham, Rackham Rackham... you gotta love them and their limited edition miniatures. As you say, it wasn't just that they were limited edition miniatures it's that they were horrendously powerful to boot. What they were trying to do I think there was create a similar demand to what is experienced in card games like MtG etc. but in a mini game that just sucks. To be honest I sorta think it sucks in card games too. Like you though I don't get why a company that has a stunning miniature wouldn't want to sell that for as long as they possibly could. Makes no sense to me.
DeleteOh gosh, I'm reading this and all the comments and thinking life is so unfair, get over it already.
ReplyDeleteSeriously, the issue here is your feelings. The fact is that life is inherently unfair, and some people will have more than you, be better painters that you, be better players than you.
So what?
In the bigger scheme of things it doesn't actually matter.
The only thing that matters is are you enjoying what you are doing, or spending your money on?
If you are not, do something different.
Yeah... except the examples you choose are based on individual difference... not artificial limits.
DeleteSo your argument doesn't stack greatly now does it? If somebody is a better painter than me that's down to individual difference and skill. I won't whine about that, sure I might be jealous of Angel Giraldez or Ali McVey and their insane skills with a paint brush... but you know what? That spurs me on and gives me inspiration actually. Ditto better gamers, although I struggle to find those in my area :P
But limited edition miniatures in certain guises isn't just about life being unfair. In some respects its downright silly and counterproductive for the companies involved. What about the poor sod who went all the way to GenCon this year from Chile and still didn't get the limited edition PP miniature! Doesn't he get the right to have a sulk? I think he does.
You might not think it matters Ashley, and if you don't good for you. But for others it does matter, if you'd played Confrontation you'd understand why so many people were angry about their limited edition miniatures. The fact that it has drawn so many comments should tell you to some people it matters. I just think in some cases it's not about being unfair it's about being elitist in some way, and I hate that.
There is an old Buddhist saying along the lines of know what you can control, know what you can't control, and be happy with what you can control.
DeleteGetting yourself all upset over something you can't control just leads to misery and upset.
Yep, but how do you know you can't control it until you give it a try? People raising their concerns with PP over this has meant they now offer these convention only miniatures on there website because people expressed their concerns. I prefer to give things a go rather than give in because it might be tough to effect change. Different out looks on life I guess.
DeleteI don't see you as a hypocrite for buying limited editions, I see you more of a fan and a victim of a bullshit, outdated practice.
ReplyDeleteAs for what you can and cannot control, tell that to people the companies with your wallets. ;)
@Toolian, it's difficult for one person to tell a company with their wallet that they are unhappy about limited edition miniatures... because the truth is there are more than enough prospective buyers waiting in the wings... and we all know it!!!
DeleteThanks for not seeing me as a hypocrite, but it doesn't stop me feeling like one! :P
Ahhh, the old limited edition saga.
ReplyDeleteThey are like a crazy girlfriend; you love them and hate them at the same time.
I am not opposed to limited editions in theory, but in practice, they blow goats.
Being in Australia, my usual choices are,
a) Miss out because I live in the wrong country, or,
b) Pay an exuberant rate of shipping to get a single mini (if it is available in this way).
Usually I just suck it up and miss out.
Unless it's kickstarter. Then I sell my children into slavery, prostitute my wife, and rob the elderly, just to catch em all.
The Relic Knights kickstarter was by far the worst. How many limited minis did they end up with?! It was unbearable. Also, I for one liked the SDE crossover, but only because I'm currently playing it.
Companies that make limited runs their business model are both savvy and frustrating. In the end, I don't even bother with companies like Kingdom Death (in saying that, I WON a Flower Knight model! umadbro?).
I am yet to come across a company that does limited runs of a model that is useable and different in-game. I know Confrontation was mentioned, but I have no experience with it. I would be thoroughly opposed to such a concept though, especially if the model is really good in-game. That is just conferring a benefit to some, and the expense of game balance; poor form.
In end, it is best to just let go. You get some, you miss some, and a months on, you forget about that limited mini you were so worked up about getting (so that you could add it to your painting pile that never gets completed!).
As I said, I know my Australian buddies are getting a dick in both ears on this stuff. So yep you have my utmost sympathies.
DeleteThe Kickstarter limited edition phenomenon is a bit of an annoying one. For instance I was unable to support Zombiecide, and having got the game now finally, I'm gutted, because I'd have liked to have got the extra heroes. But thing is, why should I get them when I didn't help fund the project? So I fully accept it.
The Relic Knights Kickstarter went ballistic very rapidly and I'm not entirely sure CMoN or Soda Pop were quite ready for the huge impact it would have on the community. So they rapidly ended up needing to develop stretch goals I think, hence the simplest stretch goals of all. Special edition / limited edition miniatures. Thing is these do actually have an effect on the game. They'll be special characters that you can use in different factions to normal. Surely that's the thing people will get most pissy about a few years down the line.
As to the Flower Knight I have two of them. So no, I'm not mad bro! lol. In fact there's not much from KD that I don't own. Just a few that I am uneasy about in there design. Likewise Studio McVey actually, I pretty much have it all.
Yeah, I can understand your grief from the Zombicide kickstarter. I did back it, but ended up missing out of Sedition Wars instead; you win some, you lose some.
DeleteAnd yes, I forgot that the Relic Knights minis can be used in game. There is going to be moaning for years to come on that one. In some ways, that not a good way to start a game off, fracturing the player base so early on. I know its not a huge deal, but still, there will be some players who can field models others can't, merely because they got in early. Hopefully they aren't OP...
Two Flower Knights? Really? You have a problem, dude, seriously. They need support groups for folks like you. What are you going to do with the other one? And, I assumed you had one, but maybe someone else reading this doesn't, so then I get to lord it over them with my limited edition model. Isn't that what it's all about in the end?
No what actually happened bro is that I was going to buy the Flower Knight when it first came out and my good lady friend knew, but pennies were tight so I said, "Nope I'm going to sit this one out". Soooo... she went and ordered me one in secret.
DeleteMeanwhile I managed to sell some painted mini's to somebody for a tidy profit and thought straight away, quick order the Flower Knight!!! Low and behold two turn up pretty much at the same time and I've got two of them. I am however, keeping one warm for a friend who wants one but missed out. I'll not charge them more than I was charged for it including shipping and taxes. You should know me better than that. ;)
As to Relic Knights... yep I really hope the Limited Editions are not OP. As you say fracturing the gaming community from so early on is a bit of a risk, and potentially really bad for business. But I guess we'll see won't we?
Well, that is certainly a rational explanation for having two Flower Knights, so you must be lying.
DeleteYou bought two so they wouldn't get lonely, right?
(p.s. who ever you sell that Flower Knight to is going to be soooooooo happy! You are a prince amongst men).
Just stumbled onto this particular Sermon, and something needs a bit of clarification. The Malifaux Gen Con stuff is available on their web store for the entire Gen Con weekend, and a few days afterward (at least these last 2 years). So you don't have to actually go to the Con to get anything.
ReplyDeleteWyrd has also, to their credit, done additional runs of certain LE models (Nightmare Chompy and Miss Demeanor, among others) due to sheer demand, though they cost more than they did the first time. Thankfully, the exclusives offer zero advantage gameplay-wise over their normal counterparts (though Miss Demeanor is easier on the eyes than the original Convict Gunslinger's ugly mug!).
All that said, the shipping costs for non-US buyers, the $100 minimum (at least the exclusive itself is free), the blink-and-you-miss-it purchase window, etc. are all fair game for criticism.
Well I didn't say they weren't available on their website... but yes neither did I say they were. So at least it's cleared up now. However, as you point out it's the nature of these things that grinds peoples gears.
DeleteI don't mind limited editionas long as it has no effect in game. Our OCD rarely allows us to use stand in's for long... Interesting to see during the dreadball kickstarter the kickback against limited edition MVPs that only died down after Mantic assured people they would be widely available through cons, Mantic points etc.
ReplyDeleteYeah, as long as there's no discernible affect on the game I can buy into that... otherwise the knives come out.
DeleteI too thought the backlash against Mantics limited Edition MVP's was interesting, as was their response. Although for me personally I think what they did was the right thing.
Yes, and the backlash was from people who essentially stood to benifit. How selfless :) (Well, that or they didn't fancy playing pissed off opponents!)
Delete