Sunday, 22 July 2012

Sunday Sermon: The lesser of two evils

The lesser of two evils... but which is which? No don't answer that!!!

Firstly if you are reading this Sunday Sermon you should be happy you aren't reading the other Sunday Sermon I had written in preparation for today. Man that was a depressing dirge of a read, that hopefully I'll never have need of. So yeah I'm sort of around again now, although I'm currently feeling a tad rough, like a herd of elephants held an illegal rave in my herd and forgot to invite me. Plus I think a badger in a sandpaper suit has taken up residence in my throat and is doing their best to rip it to shreds. So what the hell is this Sermon all about? Well I had an email a few weeks back from a chap who lives in Poland. He has a bit of a gaming quandry that I think was causing him some unnecessary anguish. You see, amongst his small group of gamers, Warhammer 40k was king. Nothing wrong with that, it's a popular game with a huge miniatures range. But he was upset, and indeed a little bit angry. You see he'd tried getting people to play other games. He'd tried Infinity and Mofaux first, but they hadn't taken. He had brought two starter sets for Warmachine in the hopes that running demo games might entice a few to give it a go... all to no avail.

However, spurned on by my firey words about the hobby needing evangelists he had continued. He hammered away at these games, and indeed added a few more to the mix. But, still it seemed 40k was too powerful a beast to tackle. He was apparently at his wits end with the game, it was too powerful an opponent and he was clearly starting to feel exasperated. He was ready to chuck it all in, and end it all... wargaming that is... he wasn't being that dramatic. He told me he was just fed up with playing 40k, that it was boring, and that it was all his friends would play, He couldn't understand why they weren't even interested in anything else. Then a few weeks later, apparently something caught the eye of one of the other gamers in his group. Something new, something different and exciting... something that was not only not 40k, but was also a none Games Workshop product. It seems my Polish friends prayers had been answered, a chink of light had appeared in the groups 40k armour and he was going to be on it in a flash, and make sure that this glimer of hope wasn't extinguished for good. What was this new game? Dust Warfare... oh crap... I think I know where this is going!!!

Now we get to the meat of his third email to me. I think it would be fair to say my budding Polish games pimp was less than enamoured with my recent review of Dust Warfare. You see it could not have come at a worse time for him and his gaming group. Two other gamers, not including the first guy to suggest Dust Warfare had decided they wanted to play the game and were preparing to make a joint bulk order from some online retailer or other. With him that made four people willing to start up a new game... my God, that's just about enough to get a foothold! They were all excited and ready to jump into a new product from a new company. That's a big step for any gaming group. Then I wade in with my size 9's. Firstly I want to say that I stick by everything I said in my review of Dust Warfare. Nothing any of the hate filled emails I've received from jilted wargamers has convinced me I've got it hideously wrong. I fully appreciate others might enjoy it, but I don't think it's all that and a packet of crisps. It's not terrible of bad, it is just average with a few niggles. However, my review was enough to scupper his break for freedom from the tyranny of 40k it seems.

I can see how I might have failed with part of my mission statement here

So despite sticking by my review and everything contained within in it, I would like to apologise to my Polish friend for my poor timing, although in all fairness I think you should be thanking me for saving you £150... no?... Too soon is it? OK. He took it all with good humour and didn't threaten any bodily harm to my personage, or indeed members of my family. No I think he just wanted to vent a little, although he did say he wanted scream when he read my review, because he knew his friends would have read it too. That I can understand... because it turns out my review convinced his three friends that perhaps Dust Warfare wasn't for them. He told me this was a devastating personal hobby blow for him, and that he was close to giving it all up. Again I'm talking about the hobby, not his life. This was the exact opposite reason I started writing my Blog... so I felt a little bit guilty as I read his email, and like I'd somehow betrayed one of my gaming principle. Any way, he just couldn't possibly carry on after months of trying to convince others to play new games, this latest blow was just too cruel. It was all too much. I have to say at this point I felt like a big fat ass hat of the highest order. Not too mention as I say a little bit guilty.

So I had a bit of an emailing too and fro with the guy, to try and sort out why he was so glum and depressed about his hobby. So I asked him what it was about 40k that he hated so much? His answer surprised me, he actually didn't hate 40k. In fact he told me he used to enjoy playing the game. Odd I thought. So why did that change? Simple he wanted to try other things, and therefore the game he once enjoyed had somehow become his nemesis, he'd forgotten he quite liked it. Now I could have told him this up front, but I'm a psychologist by training and we have an insane desire to drag these things out into as many 'sessions' as possible. You know to maximise our earning potential, plus we feel it's best people come to these conclusions by themselves, with the odd push and prod from us of course. So I continued to ask him about various facets of 40k in a fake attempt to get at the route cause of his angst... obviously I already knew what had happened, but play along with me for a little bit. It might get entertaining eventually, and I might even make a point! I know it doesn't seem likely right now as you read this, but there is the slim possibility of both happening.

It's out now so we all know what it looks like

So was it the miniatures for 40k? Did he not like the miniatures? No, he quite liked his Space Wolves and had started to collect a Dark Eldar army (I'm sure my friend Sorrowshard would have something to say about that). Even more curious, I said, feigning surprise. You like the game and you like the miniatures? Odd. So was it that there was simply too much stuff for him to paint, to actually play 40k? You know the long hard slog to get an army finished? We've all come close to painting burn out I'm sure, if not felt the full force of it head on. Well no, because he used airbrushes and painted everything quickly, and then touched stuff up afterwards. It's the painting side of things he really enjoys. I have to say at this point I was feeling a bit 'perturbed' as to what the exact issue was, what was this thing that was causing him so much anguish with regards his hobby? So I said this to him. I mean it sounds like he has a good gaming group who meet regularly to play. They all have their own armies, and they all seem to be painted. I know many people who would kill for that right now. He wasn't taking the bait though, so I was blunt, like only I can be it seems. I asked, "what's your problem with 40k?" He couldn't really answer that question.

It's a bit of a beast
It seems he just wanted to try something new, and 40k got in the way. There's no harm in that I told him. But seriously? Giving up a hobby you clearly love, walking away on a great group of wargaming friends, and a game you quite enjoy because you can't convince them to try something new? Seems a bit silly and extreme to me, I said. So I told him to take a bit of a break and think about it before he eBay'ed his armies. Or at least wait around and see what 6th Edition 40k brought to the table. He promised he'd at least do that, before knee jerking into taking up train spotting or something! His plight though got me to thinking, and when that happens let me assure you it's never good. How many others are out there right now, in a similar position? You have a decent group of gaming buddies, but for whatever reason they're fixated on one specific game. It doesn't really matter what game it is, but you want them to try something else because some Muppet like me has turned your head. Does that sound like you? Have you tried convincing people of the merits of other games and got nowhere? If so have you to ever felt like throwing the towel in on the hobby completely?

Peter Paul Rubens - Tereus (1638) - All's well that ends well... right?

I only ask because it's a state of mind I've never really been in myself. I've always been lucky enough to find people willing to give any game a go. I don't say that to rub further salt into any freshly opened wounds, I say it because I genuinely can't understand the state of mind that would say lets jack it all in. Especially if there was a group of gamers still playing a wargame of some sort or other nearby. I mean, I think I'd always choose the lesser of two evils myself and play whatever game was on offer. I just love my toy soldiers a little bit too much I guess. I think therefore sometimes we all need a little bit of perspective on where our hobby is at. There are bound to be some poor mugs worse of than we are. If however you find yourself in a similar predicament I'd be really interested in hearing what you have to say about it. As for my Polish friend? Two days after he emailed me to let me know he was going to take a break and cool off he sent me another email. Turns out those three friends had read my Dark Age article and re-read my Freebooter's Fate articles again and had decided they wanted to give them a bash. Another gamer in his group had also read about the Heavy Gear Blitz Task Force deals on my Blog and wanted to learn more, so it's not all bad news is it? I'll take that apology now buddy... no?... still too soon? Sorry. Peace out!


  1. I feel his pain I have a small group I play with and whilst I had small short term gains in introducing them to new games 6th edition squished it all from a great height.

    So I have started a 40k army whilst starting a sideline in a couple of projects that will tempt them to something else.

    Great article FG

    1. For now 40K dominates the wargaming scene. While the high cost of the game, the number of credible alternatives, access to the wider world of wargaming through the internet, and GW's strange business decisions may change that in time, for now its the way life is.

      GW left me behind a long time ago and I'm pretty apathetic about most of its offerings. However, for sheer convenience I still think its worth while to maintain a 40K army because wherever you go you can always find someone to play with.

    2. @Ishibei, of the 40k players round by me I'd say a good chunk of them are pissed at 6th Ed, while others are proclaiming it a roaring success. Nobody has taken a reasoned and moderate stance, it's all total Marmite either they love it of they hate it. So you might eventually see the chinks of light, like I did with 8th Edition. Thing is I don't think 6th Ed 40k is as much of a cluster fuck as 8th Ed fantasy was / is. Still think it has GW inherent systemic inconsistencies and clunky mechanics... but hey... people seem to almost love that shit now.

      @Spiffy, I think the strangle hold 40k and GW have is actually starting to slip now. I see way too many people at clubs trying new things and not going back. Even the people who I thought were only making protest votes have actually not gone back. These gamers are all important parts of their local gaming scene, and that will eventually take its toll on their market share. When that guy at the club who used to run the fantasy and 40k campaigns suddenly starts running Infinity campaigns... well... it has an impact.

  2. I'm very glad to have you back and to be reading this sermon Frontline. I kind of missed you around here, which is a strange thing to be saying about someone on the internet! :p

    But on the content itself. I don't know if your review was actually badly timed. If after all this time this group finally lets in an unknown game and it turns out they don't like it.. I think that might have been the killer blow.

    I can understand though, around here games workshop is all powerfull too. I'm personally not that fond of the styling used with the miniatures. And I'm starting to think I just prefer a few smaller, cheaper games than one large, expensive game. The unwillingness of people to try something else had me frustrated as well (I do believe I blew off some steam in your comment section a few times)

    I might be too extreme in the other end of the scale. I've got way too much games lying around now. Remember I mailed you about the HellDorado book? I ordered it and now that Maelstrom is having it's 25% off I've got a demon army and a saracens starter coming in. Along with the southern army for Heavy Gear Blitz :s

    I've gone about it another way now. I've got a few games lined up where I bought or I'm going to buy two starters for demoing and a few troops for myself. Best case scenario: people like it and get into the game. Failing that, they might not start buying own armies but like it enough to play a game with what I have once in a while. And if all else fails, I've got my hands on some sweet miniature to ruin with my attempts at painting.

    I do very much enjoy the painting though, so this approach might not be for everyone

    Although I don't think 6th edition 40k is for me, but the friend who introduced me into this hobby loves everything gw. So I've bought the book and we'll see how it goes.

    But it's ok since I got him into Infinity :)

    1. If you got folk who are die-hard GW fans, but you want to play something more skirmish based, what about trying out Necromunda, Bloodbowl or Mordheim?

    2. @Aeris_Gloris, I'd love to say it's good to be back, but right now I'm feeling pretty ill and sitting here typing out responses has already made me have to take two lie downs. Pathetic I know... but there it is.

      Yep, I remember you blowing off steam a few times :P

      ...and it's understandable. I used to be in a similar boat to you, all these cool games like Confrontation etc. kicking around and so few people to play them with. Then up steps Games Workshop like my knight in shining armour and they release Chaos Daemons for Fantasy in 7th Ed. Hallelujah!!! A small influx of gamers. Then Dark Elves and Skaven, and then the big push I needed to get people really started... 8th Ed.

      They really did kickstart the 'alternative' gaming scene round here through their shear incompetence and utter crapness. So God bless them, and long may it continue. As long as they don't become so crap they go bust. That wouldn't be healthy for the hobby at all.

      Well I'm glad you've taken the advice I'd given you about getting two forces. People will play other games if you've done all the hard work yourself. If they like it then they'll be tempted to buy into it. With wargaming trying before you buy seems to be really important for most people because of the outlay in cash and time a new game requires, it's a big leap for most people to make blind...

      ...but then there are nutters like you and me who just go 'oh sod it, it looks worth a punt'. :P

      @Fiendil, I tried Necromunda again a few years back, but compared to other games now it just seems lame. I couldn't shake the feeling that I could be playing far, far, far better games. I also burnt out of Blood Bowl by playing it far too much. I guess I could give it another go myself, but people who are diehard GW fans aren't actually diehard GW fans. They're actually diehard Fantasy or 40k fans. The sorts of people I've found who are willing to play GW's specialist games tend to be the sorts of people who are willing to try other companies products any way in my experience.

    3. @Frontline: Lol.. If you are feeling ill, you are feeling ill. Nothing pathetic about it mate.

      In my area, not so much yet. But I think it's coming. That friend of mine believes gw is at its limit at what it can charge for its products. As such, he believes they won't do any more price increases or at the very least only minor ones. I on the other hand see no reason for this.

      I really hope they don't, since it will break the game for him and he loves it. But if they do, I'll be ready with my metal crack of choice :)

      Yup, now if only there weren't so many things out there that look like they're worth it :p

      @Fiendil: Admitedly, I only know about Necromunda and what I read about that can be summed up in massive balance issues. I also agree with what Frontline says.

      That said, if it turns out it might work I'll do it.. I've downloaded the pdf from gw some time back and I've got more than enough warbands lying around from other games.

    4. GW won't realise the limit of what they can charge for their product until they've gone past that limit. The truth is every price rise seems to force more people out of the hobby, but there does seem to be fresh blood coming into the GW hobby at the other end of the scale. Whether it is in the same amounts as it was when I was a kid I just don't know. I don't have the facts and figures to hand so anything I say here is anecdotal... but it seems to me there are actually less and less kids in the shops round by me than there used to be on Saturdays. You could say it's a sign of the times, or even the staff... but I think the current crop of managers round by me are some of the best they've had and I know they all work damn hard on recruitment. So why the drop off? Money? Wargaming finally becoming uncool enough to die off? Better things out there? The games aren't as enticing anymore? Truth is there's probably a bit of everything in it, but there is a drop off.

  3. Some people define their gaming lives in the context of a single game. We might scoff at it but these people are the true "(company name here) Hobbyist", a lot of them are devoted to GW, but I've seen them in all flavors so there is no reason to single one company out. These mono-gamers are often scandalized by the notion of playing something else.

    Some of my best friends have been just this type of gamer, and while I have always been able to simply find other people to play with, dealing with mono-gamers can be a frustrating chore sometimes. I suspect the root of the behavior is one of two things: either the poor follow has bought into his game so heavily that he can bear to start something else; or he feels misplaced loyalty for a given company/game.

    Its never made me want to quit entirely, but I have tried in vain to convince people to try other games. One thing I've learned is that if I build it, they will come. Historical gamers often have to supply both sides for a game because there are so many periods and conflicts that the odds of bumping into someone who owns an opposing army to one of yours is very low. There is no reason Sci-fi/fantasy gamers can't do the same thing. Paint up some small(?) armies and invite your group over to give it a try. Everyone wins. You group gets a wargame put on for them, you get to play the game you want, and a few people might be converted.

    1. While not being the most cost-effective method, it's what I'm now doing. Thankfully, the game's I'm interested in are relatively cheap to get into. With the exception of Heavy Gear Blitz anyway, but I think a have an idea for that as well :)

    2. spiffy I too have seen the 'devotees' in multiple flavours. The most common after GW being PP at the moment. But I've also started to see the FoW devotees spring up too, also know a few Spartan Games devotees. That's cool, it takes all sorts and I'll still play them at their chosen games if I want to, it means I know I'll always have somebody to play at those games, which in an odd sort of a way is quite reassuring and a pretty darn positive thing in my book.

      You are 100% right though about the if I build it they will come. I'm sure I've done a Sunday Sermon on it somewhere. We're all wargamers at the end of the day and we all like little toy soldiers, and none of us can resist cool little toy soldiers can we? We just need somebody to show us that they're cool is all. Like you say have multiple factions for every game going!!! Seriously there isn't a single game I play where I don't own at least two factions. Allows me to do intro games and infect other gamers with my passion. It's all good.

      @Aeris_Gloris, in the long run it is the most cost effective way of doing things. Think about it, at least you'll be getting use out of your factions, whereas if you only brought the one faction you might never get to use them. As to heavy Gear Blitz, yeah it's in the same price bracket of games as PP, FoW and maybe one or two others. So having multiple factions in HGB can become quite costly.

    3. @Frontline: Hmm, point taken. As to Heavy Gear, while messing around with the gear garage I saw that I can take a Black Talon contingent as allies for my Southern Republic Army. So if I go that route, I can use them together or separately.

      Only problem is that I don't know how feasable it is to do intro games with Black Talons.. I'll probably need to leave some of their stealth rules at the very least.

    4. I really have no problem with devotees (dare we call them fanboys?) of a given game or company, so long as a clutch of them aren't running the only game in town. However, thanks to the interwebz and the general opening of the hobby (connected, perhaps?) its pretty easy to find someone willing to play almost anything.

      I don't know if you followed the recent FoW imbroglio when BF attempted to enact a policy of only allowing BF miniatures at FoW tournaments, but I struck by some of the people who, amongst the more reasoned arguments for both sides, took the position that BF was always correct and must be supported regardless of its behavior. It's easy to forget just how loyal some gamers are to their chosen system.

    5. @Aeria_Gloris I haven't actually played against a Black Talon force yet in HGB. So I really wouldn't know how suitable it is or isn't. Surely they can allie with other forces though? Or just pit two Southern GP squads against each other and call it a combat training mission.

      @Spiffy Iguana, I too have no problem with 'devotees' they keep games going, even after people think them long dead. I know a few AT-43 and Confrontation devotees.... be interesting to see how they take to the relaunch of Confrontation actually, what with them being a small clique.

      I sort of missed the whole FoW hubbub. I'm glad I did actually because I think my opinion on the matter would have been far too reasonable for both sides of the debate. I might turn to it for a Sunday Sermon in a few weeks time when the dust has settled, because it was a really interesting little drama, and it cuts to the heart of the problem the hobby is going through right now. There appears to be an awkward painful transition coming and I think we all have to decide what sort of hobby we all want.

    6. I agree with you that we are going through a moment of fundamental change in the hobby. It’s unclear whether or not the hobby is going to continue and grow along the lines of the GW model of self-contained “hobby games” administered by companies that are largely indistinct from the product they supply. Battlefront walked into the middle of that debate, and the intensity of the reaction shows what a touchy subject it is.

      A similarly important discussion on the future of the hobby took place in the late 70’s (I hadn’t been born yet, but I’ve read about it and heard stories from the old timers) over whether wargaming would principally about history or speculative fiction. GW used the popularity of D&D to help win that debate for the fantasy camp, which has shaped the hobby for the last 30 years.

  4. I'm a very lucky gamer as I moved away from the GW beast when wave 2 came out for warmachine about 9ish years ago,

    I still dabble in 40K and enjoy the game as well as the current version, but the group that I game with is always willing to try something new, Dropzopne Commander is on every one's lips at the moment with about 7 guys pre-ordering there respective deals, which I'm looking forward to see how it plays,

    Myself and a couple of guys are looking at Gruntz and seeing what we can do with that system, but I'm still rubbing my hands waiting for the chaos codex,

    As a great man once told me Variety is the spice of life!

    1. Variety is indeed the spice of life... that's why I play so many bloody games. I too am blessed with having a great bunch of adventurous gamers out there who are always more than willing to test out new games. It's great fun. I'm still making my mind up on 6th Ed 40k. I can see what they were shooting for, but I think in some aspects they've missed big time and in others I think they're pretty spot on.

      As to DZC, I can't commit without seeing the rules. I've tried really hard to get info for that game for you all, but it's like trying to get blood from a stone at the moment.

      Gruntz though I think is pretty cool. I can see myself really getting into that once I start up with it properly.

  5. This isn't typical for Games Workshop, but since they are the biggest you get this the most with them. But yes, been there done that. It's that strange feeling you are out of sync with the rest of your gaming group, be it 40k, fantasy, or both, or whatever game you are playing.

    Through my long life of gaming and similar hobbies, there have been times I have seriously thought about chuckig it all in and just keep playing XBOX games instead.

    When we started a small Airsoft team, with the intent of not falling into the arms race trap, just after my first kid was born. We purchased guns and camo uniforms, all of the same type to be able to go to large games as a unified force. After a year I had visited only two games (not counting training games) while the rest had played about ten large games and wanted to bunew gear; night vision goggles, better guns, better quality clothes etc. I just couldn't justify the time spent running around playing war with a toddler back at home, or justify the money it cost just for one or two weekends fun a year, so I quit that one.

    After my second kid was born some of my workmates started to play Warhammer Fantasy. This was right when 8th came out. I dusted off my old dwarf army, bought the new rulebook and army book, lamented that stuff had changed, bought some new models, and after six months everyone started to play 40k instead. *sigh* So I chucked the dwarves back into the now even more crammed box they had been in, and dusted off my 40k armies. Same story, buying the new rulebook, buying new codexes (times three!!!) and trying to decide which army would get my love and attention... and then I changed my job. So at least this time it was my own fault.

    But it's frustrating when your plan doesn't follow the "official club plan", if you can call it that. And since most people don't want to focus on more than one game at a time it's very frustrating when you want to try something new. Best way to go is to buy two small armies yourself and just invite people to play. If they get hooked, great! If not, well you still have the two armies and you can try to lure other people to try out the game, or at least play it once in a while with your figurs.

    1. Being out of sync can be frustrating. I've found myself out of step a few times in the early naughties and it pee'ed me off a bit... but then I realised I'm just special. Right now there are so many people playing so many things I feel like a kid in a candy shop.

      Plus I decided to be that guy who drives what my friends do, I'm naturally a leader not a follower so I decided I ought to be the one setting the trends. Seems people are happy to let me be 'that guy'.

  6. Sometimes the solution to mixing up your game is to mix up who you play with. If your group is too rigid in their gaming taste for you, ADD another group to your gaming circle of friends. As my tastes have changed over the years, I have expanded to three sets of gamers and have earned close friends in all of them. Some are strictly historical, some are F&SF focused. I can usually find somebody to play something I am interested in.

    1. Yeah mixing up who you play with is a good thing any way. If you can do it having multiple groups of people out there to play with keeps you on your toes and keeps things fresh. I'm really lucky to live where I do and have s many large and thriving gaming communities. I think both the West Mids and the East Mids are gaming hubs here in the UK. There's always someone playing something somewhere. It's great.

  7. I've recently been tired of my "regular game" and have really been shopping around for a new game to try. I've latched on to Bushido and have been running demos and whatnot for months in hopes to get more people at my LGS playing. It's been a tough slog, and occasionally extremely frustrating. I'll give guys a demo (sometimes their 4th or 5th) and they'll be all, "Aw man! This game is AWESOME! I'm SO gonna get some!"... but then... they never do. Frustrates the hell out of me to no end. I'm starting to think I'm never going to get beyond the box sets for any of the factions I own and am wasting my money buying extra models, tokens and scenic bases for them.
    Maybe someday it'll kick in... hopefully sooner than later.

  8. I tend to have more trouble persuading people to play games in a different way and with different priorities than I do persuading people to play games. Most of the die-rolling chaps I know will happily give another game a try but they'll play it in the same learn-practice-improve-compete style that focuses on the pickup game of whatever the 'standard' size is, and the eventual away-day event. Persuading people to play smaller games, or to string together an event or a run of games not linked by points-scoring, within a system that they already play? For some reason that's bloody hard.

    Oh, and it's definitely made me ragequit a few games in my time, although now I'm more likely to put something on hold and sod off to play a nice RPG campaign for a bit instead.

    1. I've experienced similar problems. Much ink has been spilled over the supposed schism between 'competitive' and 'casual' gamers, but I think there is a far more profound split between those who approach the hobby as wargaming, in the simulation or role-playing sense, and those who see purely as a tabletop game with miniatures. On the pen and paper RPG blogs I've seen the split well defined as Combat as War vs. Combat as Sport. The terminology doesn't quite fit for miniature games, but the difference in attitude is similar.

      Long story short: not only are there people devoted to different games different followers of the same game can see gaming very differently. Getting people to play a different game the same way is easier than tying to get people to play the same game differently.

  9. Some years back I almost gave up on this hobby because of 40K. I started looking at alternatives systems but no one wanted to try them out and I didn't have the money then to be able to buy demo armies just by myself (being a student and all that)... But this was on the surface as I found later. The real problems for me were my army and the way 40K was played by my community.
    1) My army was Sisters of Battle and although I liked and I still like the models having 3 squads with identical the same models was a bummer for me. So finally I decided to buy a new army that allowed me lots and lots of conversions (no, not orks; but csm) and i started playing friendly games. And I emphasize on friendly games, because this brings me to my second problem...
    2) The community was very competitive then and every weekend there was a local tournament, so basically there was no friendly gaming. I liked to play WYSIWYG, but the fact of me playing a metal army and with limited financial funds didn't allow me to have competitive armies + lack of experience = I was losing a lot. As expected the community got tired after 6 month of this infernal race of who beats the other best and started to fall apart. But likely we managed to reinvent it as what it should be a hobby community where we play friendly games, we talk and we make fun of each other. :)

    In time people even became willing to try new systems so I was able to introduce Warmachine/Hordes, then Infinity and latest Firestorm Armada. Also WFB kinda emerged on its own. One person even went that far to stop playing 40K all together in favour of Infinity. Unfortunately with the limited time this is how much we can stretch between gaming systems, but this our good days for our community. So my advice for my for fellow people who are fed up with 40K or people not wanting to try alt systems is get to the roots of your problem and wait for the right moment.