Friday 15 June 2012

Mantic get serious about tournaments (plus a sneaky look at their Kickstarter)

    
    

Depending on who you talk to tournament are either the lifeblood of our hobby, or an infinitesimally small part of a much bigger picture. There is both truth and falsehood in equal measure within the two competing arguments. On the one hand Tournaments are a significant part of some hobbyists interaction within the hobby, so from that perspective it is important. There's also the fact that those who attend such tournaments can often pick up on weaknesses in design and issues with balance far quicker than most others. If listened too tournament gamers would probably be the best tool games designers have for hammering out problems with their games. On the flip side of that is the fact that the majority of hobbyists do not go to tournaments, and neither do they care about them, so why should games be designed with tournament goers in mind? My argument has always been why can't a game be both?

Seems that's Mantics standpoint too. I'm sure many of you will have already received Mantics email detailing their Clash of the Kings tournaments, which has the slightly unfortunate and amusing acronym of CoK!!! I'll give you all the important headlines:

  • UK event to be held on the 8th to 9th of February 2013 at Maelstrom Games
  • USA event to be held during Adepticon 2013
  • You'll play 6 games of Kings of War at 1800 points
  • First place prize £1000's UK or $1000's USA
  • Second place prize £350's UK or $350's USA
  • Third place prize £150's UK or $150's USA

Yep, there's actual real money on offer, which I think is purely designed at enticing people to make the witch across to playing their game. It certainly beats £10 voucher's and a certificate! It's clear that in part Alessio always envisioned Kings of War as a tournament game, hence the chess clocks, which are an interesting idea I'm not yet decided on. However, this is Mantic standing firmly behind that vision and boldly putting their money where there mouth is. Something I'm increasingly liking about Mantic, which is the fact they're willing to stand behind their decisions and defend them. It's an admirable trait, and coupled with the clear and open communication we get from Ronnie and Co I have to say they're a plucky bunch that I just can't help rooting for. Will this prize money be a permanent thing, or a one off thing for the inaugural event? Who knows, I think it's intimated it's a one off thing, but we know that can change depending on circustances. What is clear though is that Mantic is clearly taking the event seriously, which is obviously something gamers should take note of. I am.

Mantic is currently in the middle of a pretty successful Kickstarter Campaign for Kings of War and more specifically the new Kings of War hardback rulebook. I think with the release of the third edition of Kings of War... or what I personally think looks like the 'true' first edition of the rules for Kings of War, it looks to be stepping out from beneath the shadow slightly of another certain fantasy franchise developed in Nottingham. I've heard it said that Kings of War is just a Warhammer Fantasy rip off, let me be clear, it was never that. Firstly the world of Warhammer is generic, and secondly the games actually play quite differently. The Kings of Wars rules are stripped down to the bare bones and everything is based around the unit rather than the mixed nature of Warhammer Fantasy, which exists between the unit level and the individual. This has advantages as well a disadvantages. Firstly the advantages, it should be easier to balance units between armies and within armies in Kings of War, and it makes the game quicker to play out on the table, I can certainly confirm this last point to be true. On the downside it does limit the amount of individualisation you as a general can bring to bear on your army lists, and secondly it can lead to very sterile looking lists and games, mainly because there currently aren't all that many options...

But that's slowly being rectified as they add more and more units and army lists to the games... with that Kings of War Kickstarter I mentioned earlier on... Dwarf Berserkers on dinosaurs is all I'll say. Erm... yes please!!! I personally haven't backed the Kings of War Kickstarter, because I'm as skint as Greece right now, and unlike Greece no Governments or Inter-Governmental agencies are stepping forward to offer me any bail outs. Probably because I don't produce ouzo or olives. But, if you are interested in the miniatures or even Kings of War as a game you ought to go give it a look, because to put it bluntly there are some damn fine deals to be had on the Kickstarter and the more people who back it, the more miniatures they seem to produce for the game, which in turn will make the game even better. So I guess it's a bit of a win win situation, I've banged on before about how much I like the look of my Orc army that I got a while back now, and the quality of the miniatures involved, they're good, and I would personally vouch for them, and I think they're exceptional value for money, like most of Mantics miniatures... I wished they'd stop calling them cheap though, even though they are very reasonably priced, because it puts some people off.

But any way back to the game of Kings of War, it was designed clearly with ease of play in mind, and on that score I personally think it works very well. Alessio has done a great job of trimming back the needless fat and serving up a leaner game, that should enable you to play really large fantasy battles within a realistic time-frame. I still though feel that perhaps some of the character and subtle nuance has also been trimmed out as well, certainly in the 1st and 2nd edition of the rules that I've played with. Although I'm led to believe that some of the 'character' and 'charisma' has been built back into the 3rd Edition of the rules. Being specific I didn't like the way magic worked in the earlier editions that I've played, it didn't 'feel' like magic, and also the strict nature of how units were 'formed' and the lack of personalisation felt a bit like a straight jacket in some ways, although others have found it liberating. But, that's the necessary trade off to make the game as fluid and able to handle mass combat as efficiently as it does. As I said above game has clearly being designed with competitive gamers in mind, but the stripped down nature of the game also suits casual Gamers. Both tournament organisers and gamers at clubs up and down the land who are hard pressed to find the time to fit games in will appreciate how slick games of Kings of War can be. Mantic seem to be finding their feet, and with moves like this they're acknowledging a pretty important and heavily invested bunch of gamers within the hobby. Whatever you think of tournaments, I don't think anyone can say it is anything other than a really smart move. Peace out!

PS. Ten more followers (to a total of 800) and I'll run my final Birthday bonaza prize draw giveaway for Mantic Games entire Dwarf Kings Hold collection, very kindly donated by Ronnie Renton and signed by the equally lovely Jake Thornton.

50 comments:

  1. For gamers who spend a lot of time on the internet tournaments are a touchstone, even if they have no interest in, or ability to, attend one. There is always a lot of hype before, during and after. In the case of Mantic and these two tournaments, Adepticon in particular, they are going to get a huge amount of advertising for very little outlay. This is a very smart move on their part and should help their sales immensely, especially if 3rd is good, which I fully expect it to be.

    I agree that 2nd is a little bit sterile. The rules are solid so I'm hoping, and expecting, that they use the 3rd Edition book as the chance to breath life into their creation.

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    1. Yep seems like you and I share very similar opinions. If 3rd Ed KoW is a bit more 'lively' I might be tempted back to painting rank and file.

      I have modded KoW 2nd Ed myself to have alternating unit activations (actually makes the chess clock have more of an input and say in games) and to remove pre-measuring. Plays a little bit livelier if you do that... although I don't expe ct Mantic to have taken such drastic steps in KoW 3rd Ed.

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    2. Pre-measuring is in (thank god)

      Jake has worked a lot on characterful rules adding a bit of flavour ans the game overall is improved. Is it as good as it could be? No, there are few niggles, overall, considering where they started that latest version is a vast improvement.

      Looking forward to it.

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    3. Have you seen the 3rd ED rules then Minitrol?

      I know Jake has worked on some periphery rules like siege's etc. I wasn't aware he'd worked on any core mechanics to the game.

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    4. Some I think they are an improvement.

      I thought Jake was doing the magic items as well? I could be wrong and he has been in radio silence now which is what I would be when finalling a product.

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    5. I've spoken to Jake about a few things recently but not KoW, I have to be honest. I'm not entirely sure as to what Jake was doing, I thought it was added extra's / bonus stuff only. Nothing core to the game.

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  2. I'm in 2 minds about this. On the one hand, £1500 worth of prize money got me to take a long, hard look at the rules downloads last night, figuring out what I'd need to buy and what it would cost- not because I think I'd win the tournament, but because it's the first time a gaming company has put that kind of prize money behind a tournament, so it got my attention.

    On the other hand of course, there's a reason other companies don't offer this kind of money. I can only the imagine the kind of unremitting douche's you'd potentially have to play across the tourney, win or lose.

    I think it's going to be very interesting to follow this. Right now, I'm erring on the side of caution and saying I won't turn up- I'd rather spend the £200 it would cost for the army on Infinity and Sedition Wars. If I get the urge to travel up to Mannsfield for a Tourney, I'll go to the BlogWars.

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    1. Now that is an interesting thought. Will the prize money bring out worse behaviour and attract the asshats? Hmmm... I had not considered that as a possibility.

      The answer...

      I just don't know. I fear I may have to attend now just to find out!

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    3. I'd say it's a given, seeing the type of players that tournaments sometimes bring (and that is WITHOUT the financial incentive).

      I predict a hitherto unseen level of asshattery.

      On the other hand, it's a brilliantly astute marketing move by Mantic. Not surprising considering some of the other stuff they have done before, they know that it is not going to be easy to muscle their way into the market.

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  3. As a long term dwarf player I want to back the slayer cavalry very, very much. Unfortunately, or fortunately depending on how you view it, I'm already backing the Avatars of War dwarf project on Indiegogo. And I really can't afford to back both.

    Oh, and Greece produces feta cheese too, that's got to be worth a couple of billion euros at least.

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    1. Do you think the Avatars of War Indiegogo Dwarf army campaign will get funded? I'm not so sure it will. So you won't have to pay a penny. I think the Guys at Avatars of War landed their campaign at a difficult time, with so many others going on stealling their thunder somewhat... AND their target being $20,000's. They should have done it a unit at a time.

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    2. I do not know, but as the money is charged to PayPal when you pledge I'm a bit short on hobby money right now. If the funding falls through I will get my money back and perhaps fund the Kings of War campaign instead. But I hope the campaign reaches it's goal as I really, really like the concept sketches and I hate the current GW figures. Another option is to invest in hasslefree dwarves instead. More costly but available now and very good looking.

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    3. You can withdraw your pledge Leif - do eeeeeet (he whispers sinisterly)

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    4. As a true dwarf I cannot break my pledge ;-)

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    5. Indeed, like all good Dwarfs he can't break his pledge!!!

      I totally respect that and I really do hope that Avatars of War get their project funded, as I too would like to see them product more plastic Dwarfs. Just seems highly unlikely right now.

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    6. I agree it doesn't look good. Just received a message about them adding a couple of rewards for minor pledges and lowering the level for the tour. Hopefully they will get some more backers that way.

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    7. I'll keep my fingers crossed for them Leif, but it looks to me like maybe, just maybe they didn't plan the campaign out properly and didn't quite understand how this crowd funding thing works. It'd be interesting to sit down and ask them why they think it didn't work and what they'd do differently next time. If there is a next time.

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    8. Well, they're just $235 short of the goal right now, with four days left. Looks like my dwarves will get some reinforcements!

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    9. Really!!!

      That's awesome. I had a load of people tell me after I highlighted the campaign they were going out to support it. So maybe there was a bit more coverage across the Internet and more people became aware of it.

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  4. As Tenzing said, I fear it will certainly draw out the win-at-all-costs crowd, and typically that crowd isn't whom I'd like to pushing toy soldiers around with.

    All that said, I just can't find anything in the Kings of War rules that grabs my attention. I guess I'm something of a jaded gamer so for a game to interest me its got to have something that just "pops" and makes me take notice. At the moment Kings of War lacks that.

    Any speculation or rumors on what Mantic might add to the 3rd Edition that would make it stand out a bit from the crowd?

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    1. Honestly I'm not sure. As I've said before, I currently find the game a bit sterile, and in need of spicing up. Ironically I think in Jake Thornton they have the man who could've done that. His Trobes of Legend rules are very slick and clever. I'm looking forward to seeing what God of Battles is like, as I know it's a more involved and advanced version of ToL, which I like.

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    2. That's a little ironic given that Tribes of Legend (which I LOVE) is pretty much just Kings of War with alternate activation and you get to remove models because well that's what people like.

      I too will end up getting Jakes new rule set - I feel little Tribes of Legend was a little light and left me wondering more about his games style.

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    3. I'd agree to a point, but ToL is subtly different in other ways as well. They certainly have a lot in common. I just feel that as a starting point ToL flows a bit better, is more engaging tactically as the alternating unit activations makes it very difficult to maintain the pristine battle-lines you now see in WFB and KoW. There's just a whole heap more ebb and flow.

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    4. Well to be fair the are very different scales yo can get what 6-8 units if you push it with TOL? Course there;s not going to be perfect battle lines.

      Different strokes and all that. You did make me get the book down off the ceiling (shuddered at the Amazons again)

      Think some LOTR mini's are headed sideways in time!

      Oh God of Battles is up on Coming Soon at Foundry now!

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    5. Yeah GoB (another funny acronym), for instance I wander if GoB will see in CoK type tournament action.

      I think ToL is a more fluid game than KoW. Plus the system of alternative unit activations really does speed things up and leaves no one standing still doing nothing for 15 minutes. Sadly KoW still has that age old problem for me and I hate it.

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  5. I have to say the prize money actually puts me off going, I have no issue with tournament gaming or taking being good at a game quite seriously, I'm just not on board with gaming for large prize funds.

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    1. Again I find that interesting. Personally I have no problem with it whatsoever, even if it isn't something I'd personally go in for. I can see that for some tournament gamers it'd be attractive and it's something people have said they'd like to see. So I guess we'll get to see how it all pans out early next year.

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  6. 'has the slightly unfortunate and amusing acronym of CoK!!!'

    Sir, you do NOT make jokes like that while I'm drinking my coffee.
    I nearly choked to death.
    Because of CoK.

    -_-

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    1. LOL I hadn't noticed that line! Now given your understanding of those rogues in Nottingham do you think it was intentional?

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    2. @SinSynn, I always assumed that's the way you'd go... choked to death by CoK. :P

      Sorry it just tickled me when I realised that was the acronym. I thought others might find it funny too.

      @Minitrol, I really don't know, only Ronnie and Co would really know. While I'd like to say yes it was intentional, I'm actually going to say no, because we've seen them steer clear of using CoK.

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    3. Lets hope they don't CoK it up...

      I am really sorry.

      I'll get my coat...

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    4. Yes... you'll need your coat after that joke. because you're heading out into the cold!!!

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  7. Given their invitational already invited some of the most hard nosed ruthless players in all Britain (*cough* Jake Thonrton *cough*)and all they got was glory and by all accounts everyone had a great time I can't seen that really changing too much.

    It is a one off by the sounds of it (unless its uber successful I guess!) and it will raise their profile and maybe people will start to see it as its own game?

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    1. You want to say you don't know. For years I used to play a game of poker with some friends on Thursday nights. As we were poor students we played for various sweets, it was a fun cheap night, but everyone took it very seriously as we were all very competitive. Fast forward a few years and we've all got good jobs and we all started bringing £250 every game, giving us a pot of £1500... every Thursday. The games intensity suddenly kicked up a notch and it was no longer fun for most of us. That was the money, and the fact that 3 of us only ever won big, while the others always lost big. Killed Thursday night poker quicker than a shot to the head, which was a shame because it used to fund my toy soldier habit!!!

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    2. Jake, hard-nosed and ruthless? :-D I'll have to tell him that! Brilliant! :-D

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    3. Do you think Jake is hard-nosed and ruthless? It'd be interesting to compare what you guys who play with him on a regular basis thought of him compared to what he thought of himself.

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    4. Yes but is he a basking shark or a tiger shark? Inquiring minds need to know.

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    5. 100% tiger! ;-)

      I'm not sure I should dissect him as an opponent publicly but what the hell :-D

      I'd say that his long gaming experience and analytical skills developed over years of games design make him a dangerous opponent in any system. If he wasn't dogged by bad luck he'd probably be too much of a handful for a lot of the gamers at the club but the cubes can desert him at the most inopportune moment.

      On the other hand the Mr Hyde-like flip side of all that experience and analytical skill means that he can find flaws, fudges and loopholes in rulesets very quickly and they can ruin his enjoyment of a system to the point where he can't bring himself to play it any more, which is a shame.

      When you have a game lined up with Jake you always know you're facing a hard challenge. Barring the vagaries of luck he is capable of tabling anyone. The real trick is that he'll do it while being a perfect gent as well :-)

      TBH I probably shouldn't be joking that anyone else is a shark though, considering my reputation... Most of the club think I sacrifice small, fluffy animals to the dice gods :-D

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    6. Ah yeah...

      Well you saw recently first hand how much of an ass I can be to play against at a certain invite only event! 4 wins and erm... all my games brought to a premature end... very premature.

      No sniggering at the back!!!

      I think I'm a gent at it, but one the mini's are out of the box / figure case and lined up for work... I do go to business and game face comes out. I can't help it. I have a competitive streak in me 10 miles wide. I was like it when playing sports, I needed to be top of the class when it came to grades... I'm just a very competitive person at heart.

      Trouble is I'm also pretty damn good at maths and probability and I have a damn fine memory so... I'm not a great opponent to face on the tabletop. I'm coming up to 3 years undefeated on the tabletop. That's playing loads of different systems, including Random Hammer. Yep that's right, at least 12 games of random Hammer in their so even the dice Gods bless me. A lot of my friends say I'm the worst person on the planet to play, because not only am I tactically astute, know my opponents army better than them, when I do make the odd mistake the dice faeries come to my rescue.

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  8. Some of that kick starter looks pretty good but given that I am about 1000 models behind in my paint list I probably should hold off.

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    1. Ah yes the curse of the magpie... so many shiny... not enough hours!!!

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    2. And that is after selling off the both sides of my skull pass set from my last attempt to start fantasy style and 1 set of Black Reach Orks (still have one more to sell though).

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    3. It is a burden many of us must carry eriochrome. There is nothing any of us can do about it I'm afraid. The more I try, the less successful I seem to be at fighting my natural shiny urges.

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  9. I'm going to be entering the KOW CoK (*erm...*) tournament, it being my first ever experience of the tournament scene. Why am I doing this? Well, 2 days of playing Kings Of War with some of the best players in the country (possibly the world) has a great attraction for me. The chance to meet up with other gamers and take part in a fun event, playing toy soldiers and drinking beer just seems a fun way to spend a weekend.

    The prize money offers no attraction to me as a gamer though, and not just for the fact that I know I have no way of winning it (love the game, but have the tactical prowess of a dead penguin). What has lured me in is what I stated above.

    Will it attract those WAAC gamers - maybe, but I hope not. The Mantic community is a lot more open and laid back than a few others I have noticed, and any funny business I think will be frowned upon.

    Here's hoping for a fun weekend.

    Cheers
    JP

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    1. While what you say might be true about the KoW community now, the idea behind offering such a cash prize is I'm sure to attract more gamers. The press release even states the aim, so you then ask yourself what sort of gamers will this prize money attract? I'm honestly not sure it will attract the biggest arseholes in our hobby, I'm really not. But, there is the possibility it will. As the community for Mantic's games (hopefully) grows they will attract a more varied bunch of people, it's inevitable my good man. I am the very model of an early adopter with these things and the early pioneers are always a very different bunch to the various waves of new converts there after. I might see you at this tournament thingy then.

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  10. I said before that, at the moment at least, I'm not really into large rank & file battles.

    But the sheer amount of miniatures you can now get for about €140 ($175) looks tempting. Especially since they are showing signs of wanting to go beyond the 'buy us because we are cheaper than gw' stage.

    Not a must have, but I might look into it some more. It might be a way to stop a friend whining I need to try out WH:F :p

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    1. Yep, their prices are exceedingly reasonable, and the many naysayers who have seen my Mantic Orcs have grumbled under their breath about them being 'alright I suppose'. I wander what they'd say if they saw the corporation or Veer-Myn mini's, because in my humble opinion they're some of Mantics best work so far.

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