So Privateer Press have made another 'big' announcement with regards to HoMachine. I think those of you with your ears to the Iron Kingdoms grapevine will have already had an inkling about this. On the plus side though the the new Collosal models look pretty darn cool and the video isn't quite as cringe worthy as Games Workshops efforts:
But, here's the thing. No matter how cool the miniatures look, and trust me they look cooler than a penguin on and iceberg, I have a nagging doubt right at the back of my mind. It's the same niggling doubt I started to get during MKI HoMachine. Why in the name of all that is holy do they feel the need to add yet another chuffing expansion to the system when last year we had two? What, isn't Wrath and Dominion enough to keep people happy for a little while longer? Do people want to see Colossal's? Yeah of course we do, we read about them in the back story right back during MKI days. So to finally see them is pretty bloody cool actually. But it's another book, so I'm guessing it won't just be really big warjacks will it? We already know there will be Legendary casters and I'm pretty OK with that as a concept too. But it's the inevitable extra units and all the unit attachments that I'm not so keen on. Plus there's the Privateer Press MKI precedent I talked about in one of my Sunday Sermon's. I guess I have my answer now don't I? They're going to keep with the yearly updates whether people want them or not. Jesus I can't believe I'm going to say this, but it could be worse than Games Workshops business model.
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| The Artwork for Legendary Vlad |
We have faction books now and we've also got these expansion books, no doubt soon to be coming out of every orifice! Surely the last thing anybody wants is to have to buy a system update or two every sodding year! I guess it's the same shenanigans I'm still a bit annoyed with MoFaux for, although to be fair Wyrd learned from the masters themselves, Privateer Press. So if you're a new comer to Warmachine there's suddenly a lot of stuff you need to be aware of and have sight of. The MKII Prime rules, your faction book, Wrath and soon to be Colossal's. That's 4 books for just the one faction already, only two years after the MKII reboot? Seriously Gmes Workshop have nothing on that. I liked Wrath and I liked Dominion. I could just about accept the Battle Engines, and I'm sure I'll be able to accommodate Legendary Warcasters and Colossal's as well. I'm not wanting to hate them before I've even seen them on the table. As I said I'm happy to finally see the Colossal's, and the miniatures look pretty damn awesome. No, it's more the message and precedent Privateer Press are sending to the community and more importantly what it means for the game and it's scale. They can say they're take them or leave them, but it speaks to a wider business plan we're starting to get a picture of now. No doubt they're already planning 2013's and 2014's double expansions for HoMachine. If that's their business plan how many will buy into it? Will I be around to buy and play them? Will I even want too? Who knows.Peace out!
Worse than GW's business model? *gasp*
ReplyDeleteI'm afraid I'm a little biased against large/ very large models and kits, because all my brushes are small and I don't have an airbrush.
And we've only seen Cygnar and Khador's Colossals.
The Youtube Comment feed is quite interesting as well, many comparing this to 40K's Apocalypse and WHFB's Horde mechanic cash cows. It's possible of course, but as a man tottering on the brink of collecting HoMachine or not, this doesn't incite me much. Such large models and armies do tend to intimidate beginner hobbyists, I think.
So... I'll be painting my Infinity Ninja for a little while...
Yeah, maybe I'm being overly suspicious but I just get the feeling that they're not just doing this because 'it's cool'. It feels to me that they're ratcheting up the scale and size of the game more and more. Now don't get me wrong, I enjoy a good game of HoMachine, but if GW come in for flak for their shenanigans then so too should PP. Right? Also I can't very well say I'm unhappy with Wyrd for pulling this trick and not raise my concerns over what PP are doing. Call me an old cynic but hey I've been burned more than once before.
DeleteI suppose there's a bit of that too. When I saw them scaling up, I instinctively thought GW-shaped shenanigans (I like the word too). The difference between GW and PP is that I love GW's fluff to bits (some recent trends notwithstanding) while utterly unfamiliar with the fluff of HoMachine, so...
DeleteI like the staggered updates. I have a cygnar army for Warmachine, that's it. I also have a sisters of battle army.......
ReplyDeleteI can tell you what I prefer, getting a new model every 2-3 months compared to no new models for 10 years.
PP's model rewards loyalty to a faction, GW's rewards people dumping thousands of dollars on the latest shiny "must have" force.
Mate, I said in that Sunday Sermon I liked staggered updates... but honestly two every year? No way. Sorry I think that's a bit much in terms of layout for books. I haven't even seen all of my options from Wrath or Dominion turn up yet and they're already talking this years update? PP are a business at the end of the day, no different to GW. They'll milk the cash cow however they can. I'd just like both to be a bit more gentle when they're pulling on my tits!!! lol.
DeleteAlso, I wouldn't call that a level comparison between Cygnar and the Space Feminists, because PP have a planned, set amount of factions that have been balanced just *so* and have more or less equal coverage across the board, much like many young wargames at the moment (Dystopian Wars springs to mind). 40K and Fantasy have been out about twice as long, they've got about 30 different factions to keep track of (if you count MEQ's and WHFB, not even counting LotR) and if it was originally balanced between factions, it's all been lost now. It's like an orderly desk with specific in-trays for specific categories, and you make sure the intrays are balanced and fair, and then you get more categories and paperwork, and before long the desk is a complete mess, you don't know where anything is and you've lost all your pens except the red one, which is almost out of ink anyway. Newer games/desk - still got order, GW - bloody chaos. Took them years to even find the Dark Eldar. They have so many things they need to do they have to prioritize slightly, and being a business they will prioritize money. If they release one Codex a month once 6th Ed hits us and concentrate only on 40k, it'll take them over a year to get everything in 6th. They don't have that sort of pace of course. Frankly, if I had a Sisters army, I'd have written (attempted) my own Codex by now, just to make them more kickass. Give them pepper spray instead of frag grenades and handbags instead of power weapons or something, just to feck about.
DeleteI can't even begin to point out what i dislike about this post, so here is a summary.
Delete- Space feminists? Woman servants of a mangod are feminists now?
- PP planned their game, so forgive GW for not planning
- Your list got lost in the shuffle metaphor
- they cant do what PP did and update all the lists in one year (more lists, but more resources)
- Go write your own codex? Go **** yourself!
- Personal attack on Goldenkaos about his misogyny.
Just take the bullet points.
It is a shame that light-hearted tone and jokes do get rather lost in translation on the internet, as was most of the post you're critiquing.
DeleteThe main point was that GW have a lot more on their hands and they've had more time to muddle all it up and get confused and side-tracked. Not saying it will happen to PP, but they haven't been around long enough for the chance to occur in the same scale as GW. I'm also not saying GW is blameless by any means (like hell they are), but there's that way of looking at it as well.
As for the dear Sisters... never liked them. That is my subjective opinion, and all my criticism of them shall be exaggerated for effect.
And, I didn't quite phrase it as 'suffer this old Codex or sod off and write one yourself', as you seem to have read, I'm merely saying that I, personally, as someone who gets extremely prickly when my favorite army's fluff and rules don't match, would have had a go. That's all I meant.
Gentlemen I'm going to pull a GW on this one and ask for a cease and desist. It's clear there are crossed wires. Primarily because I know GoldenKaos hasn't got much love for GW's shenanigans... God damn it, why am I saying shenanigans all the sodding time now? o_0
Delete@Frontline
ReplyDeleteI suppose if you have multiple forces this would be a pain. but I have one list and a lot of people only have one army. But its not like you need to buy the books, with cards coming in the model, info online, and the new app that will have all the cards and stats in it.
Yeah I stupidly have an Angry Elves army and a Trollbloods army. So it'll get a bit much. It got a bit much during the MKI era. A lot of people walked when they saw the annual updates round these parts and I know they're all keeping an eye out for it again. Just slightly concerned is all that they're making the same mistake they made last time around. This time with the added expense of faction books. I agree with you by the way that the more exciting news they let fly was the iPhone and Android app. My article for which is going up sometime today. Didn't want to flood my Blog with articles!
DeleteIt's technically only 1 update since Hordes got 1 book and Warmachine got 1 book. You can argue that it's almost the same system but either way, each faction only got updated 1x a year. That seems fair.
ReplyDeleteYep you could make that argument, and I often have. But HoMachine is inseparable as systems. Certainly where I play and from what I can gather the tournament scene. However, come summer 2012 if I'm a new player wanting to start say a Cryx army I'll need to buy Prime MKII. It's arguable whether or not I need my army book. But, as a new comer to the game I'll want to pick it up, plus if I want to try out tier lists...
DeleteTen I'll need to pick up Wrath if I want to know about Battle Engines. We're up to 3 books now, and although PP have wisely stuck with the simplified universal rules system it is still going to be daunting for that new comer when he / she see's the Colassals book. 4 books! What's it going to look like in 2013 or 2014? Damn, they'll be asking a lot of people. No doubt we'll get a redux MKII soonish, possible 2013 as well.
Or they could buy warroom and their faction deck. With inbuilt rules, it seems like that's all they'll really need other than the core rulebook
DeleteAgreed. As I said in my article on the war room, I'm genuinely excited about these sorts of apps. If they include diagrams and other forms of rules explanation as well, we could theoretically see the need for rulebooks dissipate. I'd be up for subscribing to a living ruleset like this.
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ReplyDeleteI play six different game systems on a loose yet regular basis. The reason I stopped playing Magic the Gathering some ten years ago was that keeping up to date took too much time. I understand that this is a proven business model that keeps the revenues up, but if it continues it will push me to the point where I'll have to choose which systems too play and which to drop.
ReplyDeleteThe models do look good though, and the video is thoughtfully composed as well.
That is a sentiment I know an awful lot of people share. I'm currently still happy playing HoMachine and enjoy it no end. I'll try to keep pace with it as well... but I play lots of games now myself. Because variety is the spice of life. Anything that starts to demand way more of my time than other games is going to struggle to retain me as a customer.
DeleteOn the models and video... I'm 100% with you.
If - and I stress if - PP are able to bring Colossals into the game without unbalancing it, I'll be very happy. They seem to have achieved this with Battle Engines, so I have hope.
ReplyDeletePersonally, I haven't picked up any of the Battle Engines, and don't plan on doing so in the future. It would be nice to have the same option with Colossals... though I may be tempted by the Kraken (if only for the name).
As for things getting harder for the new player, they only really need to purchase one book (Prime/Primal). The others may include special rules, but it only takes a couple of minutes with someone's book to get up to speed. Also, I would recommend someone new to the game to stay away from fancy things like Battle Engines until they're comfortable with the main game. Yes, they may eventually buy more books, but that's up to them.
I'm not to concerned at 2 add ons per system. But i will be if they keep going and adding more and more to the mix. I just feel HoMachine might at risk of becoming perhaps too big a game. I like the look of the colossals and I'll no doubt buy at least one... yeah that's right I said at least 1. Just don't want to see the game scale to something too big and unwieldy. Just my thoughts.
DeleteWhat I'm hoping happens is that they broaden the current base, and bring in more of the 'special' UA's (like the Black Dragon IFP). Another Battle Engine for each faction (and one for the Mercs... please) and maybe another Colossal would bring variety to the game without escalating things too much.
DeleteMy prediction is that Colossals will cost 20+pts, at least. This should make it fairly easy to limit their appearance on the table. That said, an Unbound game with 3-4 Colossals on each side would be pretty epic. Or should that be Epic...
I'd be up for conversion kits to produce 'units of renown'. Different UA's would also be a good way to go. I might even accept the idea of a few more Battle Engines. I'll even take the Colossal's as they do look good and they do look like fun.
DeleteThe concern is that rather than the Unbound rules being a nice occassional bash. Like Apocalypse is for 40k, that it actually becomes the norm. I suppose though it shouldn't be an issue as long as the game remains scaleable.
I want to see some Epic Retribution Warcasters and maybe even some Legendary ones too!!! We're under represented in that area I think! Just not too much. I'm sure the Colossals will have multiple options in their kits because that's the way they seem to be going now. I too think it'd be good to see a Battle Engine for the Mercenaries.
What I and many others would really like to see though is perhaps another new faction. I'd love to see the Rhulic actually develop into a proper fully fledged stand alone faction. I think that would be cool and also give everyone who wants to take a break next year (2013) take one!!! And those that don't can buy a new Dwarf faction. lol.
Funny you should mention Rhul...
DeleteI've just heard (on the latest episode of The League of Extraordinary Geeks) that they'll be getting a new 'caster in the next book. Also, each faction will only be getting a couple of new units: new Epic/Legendary 'caster and a Colossal. I'm guessing the Black Dragons are in there too, but I don't think any of the other factions are getting something similar.
Well that's good to hear. Personally I kind of understand why initially they steered clear of the Dwarf and Elf factions in Warmachine. But now having established much of the realms of man and giving their game a very humancentric feel to it, I think dropping in the Retribution and the Ruhl seems wise. It give them a good context in which to operate.
DeleteI'd like to see the Retribution get some Epic Warcasters. I thought it was a bit of a shame they didn't take the opportunity to do so in Wrath. I'll be very interested if these colossal miniatures don't offer variants. As for units of renown / Black Dragons type things... be a shame if they didn't do a bit more of this to add history and spice to things, but totally understandable from a business perspective.
love the look of the modles, but only played one game of MK 2 i want my money for minis. Not a shelf full of books to use them. Thats why i left malifaux. Its becoming more and more common for gaming. To play agame you will need Rule book, new addition rule book, Army book, monsters rule book, warmachines rule book, magic rule book ect, ect, ect. They may be needed but not from my wallet.
ReplyDeleteYeah that's my concern Pancake, that and they seem to be growing the scale of the game. Not the individual miniatures but the amount required etc. I'm staying cautious on this one. Like the look of the miniatures. Happy to finally see them, but wary of more and more rules creep.
DeleteWell, the mini's are scaling up too. :-)
ReplyDeleteI'm a bit concerned as well. I don't even mind a book a year (and I get why both Ho- and -Machine each get one) but it's also a subsystem per year. Which probably means increasingly confusing rules. Which, together with power creep, was my problem with MK I.
I actually wouldn't mind seeing more Escalation-like campaigns in expansion books and a lower number of new releases.
Bingo, give the man a prize. I'm starting to get that horrible feeling I did during MKI days with HoMachine right now. Perhaps those who didn't go through that can't quite graps what a mess the game became back then. My only fear is that the same might happen to MKII... and that would upset me.
DeleteHuzzah, a prize!
DeleteSome part of me goes "Well, as long as I just play 35 points with my mates (and the occasional 50-point battle), those colossals won't touch me/us." but just knowing the state of the game "out there" will influence our stance, I'm sure.
Yeah sorry. I don't have any concrete prizes to give, so here have +1000 Internetz points :P
DeleteLike you my group of friend said the same about Battle Engines. It took us all of 3 weeks before we each had our factions relevant weapon of war on pre-order. No doubt the same thing will happen with the Colossals. Hmmm. Maybe there's an article in here somewhere. I might have to go away play some more games of HoMachine and think on it.
I do hope they don't add any more model types in the next expansions. The campaign idea sounds like fun.
ReplyDeleteI honestly hope that they continue with small number of models released per book but up the fluff page count. It would give some time to those who have vanished from the story. (Siege, comes to mind.)
It's not necessarily the models. As long as there isn't power creep I'm OK with it. Thing is it feels to me with Battle Engines and now the Colossals like they're trying to up the scale of the game. I'm not totally down with that. I like where the game sits now. It's in a good place, a happy medium between teeny tiny skirmish games and bigger all out massive scale games like WFB, 40k or the offerings from Mantic. If they start pushing the overall model count required they'll lose more people than they'll gain I think.
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